Rob Moore has been on all four sides of the table. With decades of retail, political, communications and agency experience in his back pocket, Rob brings a unique perspective to the table as a Partner at the one of Canada’s top public affairs agencies, Crestview Strategy. From public policy to public opinion, get an insider look at modern government relations and how it impacts retailers. Learn about the changes that this line of work has undergone within the past few decades and what Rob has to say about digital campaigning and public opinion in government relations tradecraft today.
Welcome to the The Voice of Retail , I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Rob Moore has been on all four sides of the table.
With decades of retail, political, communications and agency experience in his back pocket, Rob brings a unique perspective to the table as a Partner at the one of Canada’s top public affairs agencies, Crestview Strategy.
From public policy to public opinion, get an insider look at modern government relations and how it impacts retailers. Learn about the changes that this line of work has undergone within the past few decades and what Rob has to say about digital campaigning and public opinion in government relations tradecraft today.
Rob gives us his top three best pieces of advice for better understanding the political environment as it pertains to retail, and stick around for is hot take on Jagmeet Singh’s TikTok account (and other thoughts on our current and impending political climate - including the pending federal election call).
Rob Moore
Rob has over 20 years of experience in politics, corporate communications, public affairs and business strategy, a career that has included leadership roles in both the private and public sector. Rob brings this unique perspective from both the commercial and political worlds to build on Crestview’s successful government relations practice.
Rob joins Crestview after recently managing the largest division of a multi-national public relations agency. As an independent consultant Rob has provided corporate reputation, issues management and public affairs advice to clients in numerous and varied industries and markets. He has been the lead executive with responsibility for brand reputation, strategic planning, investor relations and regulatory affairs for some of Canada’s largest companies including Hudson’s Bay Company, Loblaws, and the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation.
And prior to these corporate officer roles, Rob was the Director of Public Affairs, Canada, Edelman Public Relations Worldwide; Director of Communications and Press Secretary for the Mayor of the City of Toronto; Principal at the communications firm, Perkins Moore Associates; and a senior political aide to a Federal Member of Parliament.
Rob has been a leader in the global corporate social responsibility and sustainability community. Serving on the Board of Directors of Canadian Business for Social Responsibility since 2005. Including acting as Interim President & CEO and now is the Board Chair.
Rob serves as an advisory Board, Committee Member and Board Director to numerous community and not-for-profit organizations including Canadian Business for Social Responsibility; Canadian Journalism Foundation; Community Living Ontario; Evergreen Foundation; and the YMCA of Greater Toronto.
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Until next time, stay safe and have a great week!
Michael LeBlanc
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Counsel of Canada.
Rob Moore has been on all four sides of the table.
With decades of retail, political, communications and agency experience in his back pocket, Rob brings a unique perspective to the table as a Partner at one of Canada's top public affairs agencies, Crestview Strategy.
From public policy to public opinion, get an insider look at modern government relations and how it impacts retailers. Learn about the changes that this line of work has undergone within the past decades and what Rob has to say about the digital campaigning and public opinion in government relations tradecraft today.
Rob gives us his top three best pieces of advice for better understanding the political environment as it pertains to retail and stick around for his hot take on Jagmeet Singh's TikTok account and other thoughts on our current and impending political climate, including the upcoming federal election call.
Rob Moore
Are we quickly going to tell people they got to go back into stores to get certain things? Are we going to tell people they have to, they got to go to a doctor's office to get a prescrip? Like, how much of that is going to be a predictable return? What's the pace of change now?
Michael LeBlanc
Let's listen in now.
Rob, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast, my friend. How are you?
Rob Moore
I'm well Michael, pleasure to be here.
Michael LeBlanc
Well, it's so great to hear your voice. I think last time you and I saw each other was at, not surprisingly, a pub in Yorkville, and but we first met at Hudson's Bay. Now, that's probably in the late 90s, 2000s. I was launching hbc.com, we're doing all kinds of fun stuff back at Hudson's Bay. So, I'm really excited and really happy to get you on the mic and talk about, to talk about you and your perspectives.
Let's, let's jump right in and tell the, tell people about your personal professional journey. You've been on every side of the table I can imagine. You've been on the retailer side. You've been on the brand side. You've been in on the political side in municipal politics. And now you're on the, the advocacy lobby side. So, you bring such a rich perspective, tell us all how that came to be.
Rob Moore
So, the, the origin story is all about politics, right. I've, I have been in and around politics for my entire career, but rightly identified different sides of the table at different times. My retail component the careers is just by happenstance, it just was a, the circumstances in which I fell into Hudson's Bay Company early in my career, and then managed to, you know, do a stint at the Weston Corporation for Loblaws as well. And then actually did some time within a Lottery and Gaming Corporation a Crown Corporation, which let's face it, is really just a retail operation, as well, just so happens to be a a monopoly. Which, if you ever get to run a business, monopolies are among the easier ones to run, in the retail business. I highly recommend them. When,
Michael LeBlanc
Note to self.
Rob Moore
Yeah, every time your market share remains the same, 100 percent. It's, but, but no, I mean, I've, you know, I started my career in politics working for working for politicians. It is something that I am, I can't shake from, you know, I don't use the word addiction, because there are some that are more addicted to it than I am. But I enjoy the thrust of politics.
But early in my career, decided that it was a good thing to be a part of, but not a great way to make a living. And I left the world of working for a politician, or in politics proper, and ended up you know, working as a consultant. Worked for a large multinational called Edelman, as the Director of Public Affairs for them in Canada. The first day I arrived coincided with them landing a big client, Hudson's Bay Company. So, I had, as they say, in the business unsold time. So, I got put to, handed over to Hudson's Bay Company and became a consultant to them. And then when there was a leadership change, among many, during my time around Hudson Bay Company.
Michael LeBlanc
Oh, yes,
Rob Moore
I was asked by incoming CEO, George Heller at the time to to join formally and spent six years of my career as a, as a Vice President, in charge of Public Affairs and all things that go with it at Hudson's Bay Company. Then left there, did a stint as a similar role at Loblaws. Left there did a similar stint, as I said, at Lottery and Gaming Corporation. Did a bit of work after that, that was, you know, had me spending two years within the Rogers network trying to put together a consortium to bid on the privatization of a large asset. And then, and then returned back recently into consulting and I'm now an owner and partner of a public affairs consultancy company called Crestview Strategy.
Michael LeBlanc
Would you advise listeners who either themselves or maybe they've got kids who are beginning their career journey is, if they're interested in politics, and by the way, were you always interested in politics? Were you the guy in the, in, in, at around the sandbox trying to figure out who was, you know, the leader and who was how to manipulate? Or how to figure out the politics of the play? Was that always you? Were you always a political person so to speak?
Rob Moore
Yeah, yeah, I didn't notice it until I realized it was something, and I probably realized it the most, you know, in my time at HBC, where it was an interesting executive committee that I was fortunate enough to sit around the table. I didn't know much about retail. There were a lot of people around that table that knew a lot about retail. But what I knew that no one else knew, was how to how to count the votes in the room, right?
Michael LeBlanc
You figured out the landscape, you figured, I mean I was in some of those meetings, you figured out the landscape real quick. And it was a time of tremendous, as you said, tremendous change. And, you know, people were, you know, their stocks are trading up, down, or sideways at any given time. But,
Rob Moore
So, in that, yeah. So, that essentially, is politics, right?
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Rob Moore
Do you have the votes to do what needs to be done? So, essentially, yeah, I didn't know that's what I, what I was doing as a kid, but clearly, it was, right. I was always assessing who was up, who was down. And yeah, so that did become the central part of my career. And, and I enjoy organized, and sort of formal politics, but it's not, it's, so to answer your question more specifically, personally, if someone asked my advice, I'd be quite candid in it.
Partisan politics is, is, is not my preferred method of practicing the art of politics. It's a pretty, it's a pretty myopic, pretty, you know, it is not a meritocracy. It's, it's, you know, if the person across the table is wearing the same jersey as you, you have to have to work with them, whether they're good at what they do or not. So, I quickly became less enamored of spending my time in organized partisan politics. And I have colleagues that I work with today who can't help themselves, but see the world through a partisan political lens. And, I don't think they're bad people, it's just, I'd be quite clear to someone that wanted to spend a career in it. Be careful, there's limitations when you identify yourself as, I will only ever work with people that think the way I think, because it's pretty limiting.
Michael LeBlanc
Is it though, an important part of a career plan if you want to do the kind of work you're doing? We're going to get into that, at length, a bit later. Is it important to sit in those meetings and be part of that to understand it. Just like, you know, what do they call it, regulatory capture? In other words, you want to be, you want to be a civil servant to understand how the civil service works. In other words, to work with them better. Is that an important part? Would you advise people that if they want to go down this route, that it's, it's not a bad time to spend a few cycles?
Rob Moore
Yes,
Michael LeBlanc
At that table? Yeah,
Rob Moore
It's a, I mean, two things that I always tell people is, there's virtually no barrier to entry. Like, if you, if you want to become, if you want to learn more about banking, or politics, you don't show up and volunteer at (inaudible) or, or a, one of the six sister law firms, right. But, if you if you have an interest in politics, I can give you three numbers now of campaigns that would put you to work tomorrow, right? If you showed up. And that's how most people get their start. So, there's no barrier to entry. And, if you're good, you'll be given more than the next day, and the next day, and the next day. Like there is a, there's a reason why the staff that serve, you know, Ministers and Prime Ministers and Premiers, you know, the average age is about 25, right. Because,
Michael LeBlanc
Right,
Rob Moore
They've been on a meteoric rise where they have, they will eat as much as they are fed, right? And, and that doesn't also happen, like there are lots of careers you could choose to be like, well, we'll just slow down, it takes a little bit of time before you get to, you know, touch the big toys. But that's not, that's not in politics, if, 'A' there's no barrier of entry, and if you're good, you'll be given more responsibility in an exponential capacity than you would in another, in other fields.
It burns the shit out of you.
Michael LeBlanc
Right,
Rob Moore
It is not a healthy lifestyle. There are not a lot of healthy, you know, happily married individuals that have spent 30 years in politics, right? It's just not, it's all consuming, you seek to be needed for every decision because that's part of your job is to,
Michael LeBlanc
Right,
Rob Moore
Make sure that no one makes a decision without you. So, it's, it, which is the conclusion I came to early which is I'm getting out of this you know, I started to have a family and, and getting home at a, at a more predictable hour became more important to me than wanting to be the last one out of the office every night which is sort of a hallmark of, you know, who really gives a shit in the political
Michael LeBlanc
Well, let's talk about your world now, Crestview Strategy. Talk about what, what that is, and what really a modern government relations firm does. I mean, it's more than knowing the right people. It's, it's more that's important. It's more than understanding how politics works. That's important, but digital campaigns influencing what is what is a 360 degree, look at your tradecraft feel like.
Rob Moore
So, I often describe it as you know, the currency of the realm was always relationships, who you knew, who you could call, and that the currency is diminished, but it is not gone. Right, it is still a key component,
Michael LeBlanc
Right,
Rob Moore
Of how one operates in the public affairs space. But, there have been some rapid changes, some of them, some of them just riding the coast of, or the wave of technology and change and how people gather and make decisions together is not the same as it was 10 years ago, let alone 20 years ago.
But, then there's been some rule changes, right? There's been some expectations of transparency. There's been some fundraising rules, which have fundamentally changed the game. So, I'm old enough to remember when you didn't have to register to lobby, when, when I would, the time working for corporations like HBC, or others, we would hire lobbyists. And they would essentially, say, 'Don't worry, I'll make the call, tell me what you need'. And they would phone up and sort of say, 'Okay, it's done, taking care of, your brief has gone into the cabinet book', or 'The minister has your note they're taking it home', or whatever it might be. These are gone, right? You can't do that anymore. You have to register, if you're going to have a conversation with an elected official. You can't,
Michael LeBlanc
And that's anywhere, right. I mean, if you run into your local Member of Parliament or a Minister in an airport, that has to be a registered conversation, right?
Rob Moore
So, not surprisingly, I have lots of friends who are elected officials, and we do the dance. Most times we run into each other or something, which is, you know, I never talk about a client, right.
Michael LeBlanc
Right, right.
Rob Moore
If I'm registered, which I rarely am, I would, I would just as a matter of fact, never raise the topic so that we both are comfortable to say we will not do it. Now, that, it is not a, it's not a blanket regime. Different jurisdictions are different. There's Federal, Provincial and Municipal registries. Some are further ahead, some are more forgiving. Some are, you know, you're presumed guilty unless otherwise shown. Like it's, so it's not the same, but there is a general expectation. And we are a firm that I would say is on the newer side of, of firms in our space, meaning we're younger and we're growing, where were we, we registered to a fault. Like we will always be transparent. We, we,
Michael LeBlanc
Right,
Rob Moore
Are zero risk in terms of, you inevitably have a conversation a couple times a year with clients who like, 'Come on, maybe it's, it, you know that they'll do a risk assessment that it's better not to register' And we go back pretty hard and say, 'You're absolutely wrong.' The risk is, is, is not registering, there is no risk and registering, right. 'Well, then people will know our business', it's like trust me, just register.
So, so that tank, you used to be able to just, you know, I bought a couple of tables at a dinner, or a large fundraiser, that'll give us access to someone that'll. Those days are all gone, that, the, playing field has been leveled completely where money doesn't play into it.
So, the practice has evolved. We organize ourselves around sort of four things, or, you know, we call them practices. Sometimes they're verticals, but they're really just sort of a flywheel of, of what needs to be done on a holistic campaign. And, sometimes we do all of them. Sometimes, we do some of them. But one is just, yeah, you got to register and advocate for your clients positions with elected officials. So, that's the old school, you're a lobbyist. You, your name shows up in the registry, you book the meeting, you go in, you meet with the officials straight up, that's still core to most campaigns.
Then as you identified, you know, a growing part of our business is digital campaigns and mobilizing, which is understanding that the greatest impact you can have on elected officials is hearing an authentic voice from someone that votes for them or may not vote for them more pointedly. And the ability to find people that care about the issue that you want the elected official and their staff to care about is lightyears ahead of where it would have been, again 5, 10 years ago, right? We can go into the, you know, using all the tools available, find a community that really cares about a specific issue, and move them up an activist chain where, you know, you start with the top of the funnel where you get them to see an ad and yeah, I'm concerned about that. And then, you know, if you get 100 of those, by the end of the certain period of time, maybe 10 of them are like, 'I'm prepared to volunteer, I'm prepared to you know, testify in front of committee I'm prepared to write a letter, I'm prepared to put a sign on my lawn', whatever it is, you move them up that, that ladder and that, that has changed our, our world significantly, because you don't just show up and say, we think as company 'Y' you should do this. They're hearing from authentic voices that are saying, we really care about this, this is going to impact something that's very important to me, and I'm a voter. That's the second part.
The third part is, you know, it's still telling the story, there's still a narrative component to how you persuade, and how you change public opinion. It's less and less about earned media or sort of traditional media. But you still have to have people that understand communications and how you craft a message and how you prepare for a persuasion campaign that isn't about new and improved, or new flavor this quarter, whatever it is. It is about something that is fundamental to people's opinion about you whether you know, your, your reputation is what you think it is, or you should be given access to a market, or you should be allowed to continue to exist within a regulatory framework, whatever it is, you have to be able to communicate it.
And the fourth piece of our business is really just about Public Opinion Research and understanding how, how people think because the days of saying, 'Well, my instincts are most people, think this about psychedelics emerging as a legal, a legally expanded access in the marketplace', it's like, 'No, you don't know that. You need to go and go through some methodologies that actually tell you that.'
So, those are sort of four pieces of the, of the pinwheel, that all get applied to people that come and say, we need to address an emerging, either risk or opportunity relative to what people think of us, and those people are going to have a say in whether we exist, whether we have access to a market, whether we get shut down, whether we're allowed to grow, whether we're. So, whatever it might be, there is some journey that requires them to go through a, you know, a public opinion assessment of their point of view. And we call on any of those depending on, on what the circumstances require.
Michael LeBlanc
Is it also still the case that you would find yourself explaining unintended consequences?
Rob Moore
Oh 100%, Like I,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
That would be if I was not being too glib. It's got to be a third, if not 50% of the starting point, right. Which is, and that's because, you know, as I, as I referenced earlier, some of my, my close friends are politicians, right. They're not bad people, but they have a, and they're led by officials that are generally well meaning,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
That say, this is what we have to do. And, you've got to go in there and go, I understand why you're doing that. We support your objective. But, we understand that by doing that you are going to have these consequences down the market, down the chain. And you're not considering these people's point of view. And then you get into the straight up politics of well, whose opinion matters more.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Moore
And guess what, that's what politics is, right? My opinion is more important than your opinion. Let's have it, let's duke it out. But, a lot of it is unintended consequences, right? Because, and most of it, Michael, quite frankly, comes to and you would know this better than most is because change has consequences, right? And when you have new market entries, when you have disruptive technologies, when you have, you know, ways of doing things that no longer require you to use the status quo delivery mechanism or,
Michael LeBlanc
Or you've had the great acceleration that COVID has brought in many industries that what you thought in the before time isn't the way, may not be the way, we don't know all the implications of the COVID era. We know how many of us adjusted to the time, but we don't necessarily know the difference between what was an adjustment and what structural change. I mean, that's, that's the complicated, really complicated factor and, in many industries, I'm sure.
Rob Moore
Yeah, and there's, and there is a gap between, a growing gap, I would say, that we've noticed between consumer acceptance and sort of voter intent, intent may not be the right word. But, and we saw really evident on the, on the cannabis space, right? The pace at which the government was, was moving on that file was glacial compared to where the consumer space was, right?
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, yeah.
Rob Moore
And you, and you had consumer offerings that were reacting to real time data and feedback about how customers wanted access and that's not how government reacts, right? Government reacts to stakeholder impact and well, you know, how you know, and they bring a very old lens to a lot of the stuff. So, unintended consequences is both a shield and a, and a (inaudible) depending on on who's paying me, quite frankly,
Michael LeBlanc
I saw, I think, would you agree we saw some agility I've never seen before in governments with the COVID era? Everything from packaging to you know, you talk about cannabis suddenly, in many jurisdictions, you could do home delivery in Ontario, for example, that's happened literally overnight. You could do home delivery of beer and we saw agility that, that was heretofore unheard of or am I imagining that? Is it, is it,
Rob Moore
No, there was, there was a, an not, not to be to sort of processi about it. When you when you declare states of emergency, or emergency orders, you can relax a lot of regulatory stuff that they,
Michael LeBlanc
Right,
Rob Moore
Couldn't do in normal times, right?
Michael LeBlanc
Or consultative with stuff, right. Consulting with the people listen, 'We need to make a decision. This is the this is the decision we need to make. And we're either going to pay for it with, at the at the voter box, or we're going to, we're going to win at the voter box, but we got to make a decision'.
Rob Moore
Yeah. So yes, a lot of stuff move faster. You know, we have represented the spirits industry for years. And they have always struggled around issues of access entirely on reputational right. Like that, you get beer and wine in grocery stores.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
You know, access, you know, and, and then when delivery became available, oh fine we'll, we'll allow beer and wine to be delivered, but spirits weren't covered. We were like, well, what, why not? And we got that change very quickly, that we, you know, that, that was decades of being left out that, you know, it was very easy to change as a result of the circumstances and the pivots that, that some elected officials were making at the time.
But you're right. I mean, you know, I would be on the side that it's gonna be tough for, for that stuff to go back, right. Like, I know, you pay more when you go to one of your little wine shops or something, in a high street, or whatever it is, but it's gonna be tough to put that, to tell them to shut down, that's not available anymore, right. Or,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
Or some of these other changes that, that have occurred. I think you're right, there's going to be because the table,
Michael LeBlanc
Even the healthcare, right, I mean, it was, it wasn't the case, and we're both in Ontario, it wasn't the case in Ontario, where you could have a doctor's appointment on a Zoom call and get a prescription renewed. Which is, when you do it, now you're like, you know, it, it's the model of efficiency, but it suddenly happened overnight. I mean, I'm sure there's like 10 committees who argued for 50 years about that, but then it happened. And it's hard to see going back.
Rob Moore
I bought a property over this. And it was like, you would have had to go into the lawyer's office and sign 19 docs, like, oh, I had a 10-minute call with my real estate lawyer and I owned it, right?
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
And what kind of scam were you pulling on me for the last few times?
Michael LeBlanc
Shifting gears, a little bit, what do companies or leaders get wrong when they seek to influence or somehow impact public policy? I mean, as you know, I spent many years the Retail Council of Canada, so I have some notion of working with, or representing industries, as you said, You were with Hudson's Bay and Loblaw. You know, it used to be that, that, in fact, many, let’s say retailers, even very big retailers, didn't even see a role for advocacy that thought it was just an unnecessary expense. But then I think they felt then that the story was being told to them versus their influence. But, but what do they get wrong? Is it, is it trying to understand what they can accomplish and how much and how much influence? But you tell me. What, what often are you, what, in the meeting is you saying, hey listen, you know, that's, you know, you're not quite thinking about this, right. What, what are those things?
Rob Moore
Yeah, and I'll be a little more fair in my negative assessment, and it's on both sides of the table, right. I've often used the analogy that, because, because I have sat on both sides of the table, right. So, so I've served politicians, I've served,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
CEOs you go into meetings, you know, the analogy I use is that it's, it's sort of like, you sit down on one, one group is speaking Portuguese, the other speaking Spanish, that if you're not really paying attention, it sounds like the same language, but the other one has no idea what the other person say, right. So, what do they do, they just kind of yell louder, or they make their case more emphatically. Not understanding that they're speaking, sort of different. They're speaking about different value sets. They're speaking about different metrics and predictors.
And that although those worlds intertwine all the time, I'm still amazed. And I tell the story, I wrote a strategic proposal for the Government of Ontario on the privatization of their gaming assets. And, you know, I would go into some private equity guys, or some sort of financial leaders in the community, that were trying to understand the valuation of certain properties that may or may not have been made available by the Crown, and you go in, and they would demonstrate a, well, you just got to move these assets here. And he's like, 'Well, you can't do that because it's in this riding and you can't do that because of' and they, they would have no comprehension of, of not looking at a profit and loss or balance sheet statement and understanding value is just a, it's a numerator of exercise, there is no other consideration around what the value of something is.
Other than that, and then I would go and speak in that, you know, I go down and make a presentation on what I learned to the Minister of Finance, and I put up something and demonstrate the valuation of an asset. And I'll never forget one day of senior official in, in the government, like in finance, I put a slide up and they go, 'What is uh, what is a CAGR? What is a CAGR? And I'm like, CAGR? It's a compound annual growth rate, it's a pretty significant measurement you should understand when evaluating assets in the private sector. And I'm like, and you write budgets for the government, like, then you realize neither side really understood the other one's point of view, right. So,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, yeah,
Rob Moore
What is it, is that you really have to take a step back, and, and which is not easy to do for high powered business leaders, right. Because, as you and I know, we've served the CEOs, not a lot of people tell them no, right.
Michael LeBlanc
Right, right.
Rob Moore
Not a lot of people say no, no, no, let me explain this to you differently, right. Because they are rarely challenged. And the same happens with the Minister, right. Where they're like, 'No, no, no, my world is the world that matters'. And there is a real sort of conflict that you have to defuse before you go in, right. Like, I have a CEO that I worked for, for years, that would, would go into a meeting with a Minister and each time would say, 'Okay, what is the sale? What order are we getting out of this meeting?' I'm like, that's not the way it works. And they're like, every meeting is a transactional meeting. And I'm like, 'Not in politics'.
Michael LeBlanc
Right.
Rob Moore
You may say something that comes up three meetings later that has to do with this, like it's a different game. And they'd be like, 'No, you don't understand. Everything has to end in a transaction. That's how the world works'.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
And the CEO got fired by the Minister six months later, right. And it's like, see, it doesn't work that way. You have,
Michael LeBlanc
Two worlds don't always meet, right. I mean, you know, Donald Trump is often described as a very transactional leader. He just moved from transaction, to transaction, to transaction without really encompassing a strategy. But it was, I won here, it was win lose, I win here and then let's move on. And that kind of transactional approach, just you know, it doesn't, it doesn't foster good public policy, I don't think. But it is something different to understand, right. It's not a transaction. It's, it's a, it's more iterative than that, right?
Rob Moore
And so, people are getting better at it. In terms, to answer your question, more specifically, business leaders, there is a translation component, where they listen more often, where they understand that there are aligned interests, they're not always competing interests, you just need to find a way to, to align yourself with that.
You know, things like mandate letters from governments are much easier now. So, every Minister gets handed a mandate letter, those are made public. So, you can go in and, and articulate your ask, or what you're advocating for, in the language of something that is in, in the Minister's mandate letter. So, there are ways to align interests and it is, that's what people like I do, they, they say, if you're going to ask for, you know, 'A', it's not going to be a good meeting. But if you kind of present the scenario where 'B' and 'C' actually equal 'A' at the end of the day, we may have more success. And that's, that's what good consultants like, like us do. And, it is getting better and more listening. But yet the simple answer your questions, those that go in and expect that their job is to tell government what to do, rarely goes well.
Michael LeBlanc
Will be less successful. Do you think the COVID era, I mean, it has been a very highly charged political environment of this intersection between politics, and business, and life. is there an upside to this? In other words, is, you know, when the bread fell off the breakfast table landed butter side up, did businesses have a better appreciation of governments? Or, do you think it's, you think will come out of this better informed collectively, between governments and business, I mean, or do you think will, will move the same or worse?
Rob Moore
I think my answer would sounds like a political answer is, you know, it depends who you're talking to, right. There are such important sectors of the economy that just got the shit kicked out of them, right.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
And, and I assume they're not sitting there thinking they were thought of, or looked after, or they're, that elected officials were nimble in appreciating what they needed. But, then there's some businesses that, that adapted well and you know, by sheer luck, because of what they're offering was.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
So, I think they'll all react differently, right. Like I, I talk to people all day long about politics, usually at the beginning and end of calls because they always want to kibitz about it somewhat.
Michael LeBlanc
Like this one. Yeah, like this one.
Rob Moore
Outside of their issue. And, you know, there's a, there's a pocket of people in the Province of Ontario, that are absolutely livid with Doug Ford. And that's not a partisan assessment. That's just a, he totally messed this up.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, right.
Rob Moore
Okay. And I don't think they're, they are emerging out of this with a belief that this all went okay. And we're doing fine, right. I think there's some pockets of resentment that we're yet to understand as we emerge from this, and that's just, that's just the opening and closing like, could I get a haircut or, or, you know, go to my gym kind of anger or, you know, are my kids going to school or not? Up yo-yo kind of thing.
And we haven't got to the, the sort of, like, totally suspended the financial, you know, the financial management assessment, that is one of the key contributors when people make decisions about the federal government, right? Are they good stewards of the public purse? God, there's so much money that's flown out. I don't know how they turn the taps off. I don't know, like, that's a whole,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
Other exercise, it's yet to be understood.
Michael LeBlanc
Maybe the stock maybe the stockpile, as it's been described, right, this massive consumer stockpile that's going to, dry powder, and consumers, it's going to pull us out and the economy out. It's certainly having that effect in America. I mean, you've, you know, the NRF has projected, the National Retail Federation, has projected 13% growth year over year. You know, it's just,
Rob Moore
That's absurd. Can you imagine that?
Michael LeBlanc
You know, and that's on a multi trillion-dollar retail business. And, you know, they, it's just, you know, it's pulling out of the, of the, you know, we'll see where it is a year from today. That's a whole different conversation.
Speaking of which, so in all your conversations with, with leaders, what are their top concerns with retailers and brands now that the COVID era is finally winding down? You know, the dialogues a little bit less about what the rules are, and how to operate. But, what coming out of all this, what are their, what are their top concerns? What's, what's, so to speak, keeping them awake at night, that they talk to you about and get your wise counsel on?
Rob Moore
Probably falls into a couple of categories. One is just a general feeling of instability, right, in that we are a country that is uncomfortable with minority Parliament's, right. We just don't, we don't kind of work well with them, even though we've had quite a few in the last 20 years or so. And, there is an appetite for certainty, there's an appetite for I think some of that may be just the result of the last four years in the US when you had nothing you could count on from that partner. There's just a general, and then the pandemic, like there's just a general, can we please go back to something predictable in our public sphere, right?
Michael LeBlanc
Right,
Rob Moore
Which is just general, right. That's not a, that's something specific that's just a general, can't we please return to
Michael LeBlanc
What normal looks like? Just,
Rob Moore
Yeah, but boring kind of politics, right. Like the,
Michael LeBlanc
Right,
Rob Moore
The politics that we knew where you knew this guy was going to do this, and this woman was going to do that if elected, like, it's all kind of disruptive. And that's genuinely kind of what they talk about.
But the other part is, and you've alluded to it a couple times, I would know more about it is, the pace of change that was accelerated as a result of this, how much of that was a factor of circumstance? Like the fact that you know, I don't know what the number is, but how many people in the GTA ate restaurant meals in the last 18 months? And how many of those will return to eat them at a restaurant? How many will continue to have those delivered? How many will actually go to eat? You know, there was a period where there was retail shut down in Ontario for so long, there must be some statistical thing about you know, people needed underwear and socks, they had to get the underwear and socks somewhere, right.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
And they, where do they get them from? Well, that changed the behavior and, and, and how much of that behavior changed is, was sort of pushed into a technology that was always latent to, because it was based on consumer preference? But are we quickly going to tell people they got to go back into stores to get certain things? Are we going to tell people they have to, to your point, they got to go to a doctor's office to get a prescription? Like, how much of that is going to be a predictable return? What's the pace of change now? That's the second part that seems to keep them up.
And, and inartic, an unclear view that government should do something about that. Like some kind of general, you know, 'Getting off my lawn,' kind of,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
This was all an anomaly, we're gonna go back to the way the world used to work, right? Where, to where our conversation sort of leading up to this, about conferences and other things, right. Like, is that all just gonna come back? Or, is everyone going to perpetually talk on Zoom calls all the time, right? Like it's, that's the second part of it is, is trying to assess the pace at which some of this stuff,
Michael LeBlanc
Right,
Rob Moore
Is just locked in and never going back? How much of it is going back? And what role does government have in, in changing that? I mean, we did some work early on in the ride sharing space, right. And, the resistance that came to, in the ride sharing space, because the status quo industries that we're going to be hurt, that sentiment doesn't, isn't the same as it used to be right? The protection for status quo has been somewhat weakened as a result of the fact that all of our lives changed and we relied on different mechanisms of commerce and, and connectivity. And, how much of that is going to come back? Who knows. And that seems to be another factor that that worries business leaders in that those that have, you know, B to, B2C businesses.
Michael LeBlanc
I've been referring to it as the, the powerful regression to the mean phenomenon.
Rob Moore
Yeah, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc
And you know, how many people would just pick up after 18 months of what, Roger Martin called, you know, the biggest circuit breaker on consumer behavior since the Second World War? It's funny, because if you, if you and I were sitting together and saying, 'Boy, if we had six weeks of this, everything would change' Well, we've had 18 months of it. And yet, you know, this weekend, I looked at lines from retailers, you and I know, and there are lines around the block, from people who wanted to go shop them. So, it's, it's the powerfulness of this regression to the mean on top of this disruption in our lives, and that disruption is not over, either, by the way, as we know.
Oh, listen, I can't have you as you kind of alluded, I can't have you on the podcast without tapping into a bit of your political wisdom. Who's the best communicator around, from the Fed, at the Federal level, I see Jagmeet's got a TikTok channel that's just blown up. He's really good at it. Is that going to win him the next election? Is there going to be, thinking that there's going to be an election call, is the Trudeau government going to try and lock in the gains, whatever they may be? From managing the COVID era, is that, you know, how do you see the landscape you see that kind of, we need change, and this is an opportunity versus let's just lay low and, you know, we got a new Governor General today. So, a little progress here, a little progress there. How are you guys seeing it?
Rob Moore
Well, we're into, into one of the predictable parts of a, politics that I now recognize having been doing this for so long, which is we're into the when, not if, real election timing watch. Because, there's like five people that actually know the timetable that this Federal government is following with respect dropping the writ, and they're not talking right. So, so it has really tightened up. So, the, the rumor mill, the speculation is now filled with those that don't really know. But, that's a sign that we're getting closer, because those that do know, are, are holding their cards much closer to the chest, because they're past the point of kind of thinking out loud about it. They're looking at the timetable.
And there's a date, there's four people, maybe it's five people that know the date, it's in a calendar, it might change, but it's in a calendar, and they've and they started to build the campaign around that. And that's going to happen, you know, as soon as you know, it may happen is as soon as this month, but definitely before the end of the summer, leading to a you know, an election. Now, we're, we are, we are going to have a Federal election in the next three, four months. I don't think, unless,
Michael LeBlanc
No doubt in your mind about that,
Rob Moore
Unless something unforeseen happens. That all signs point out the Governor General, even, even the Prime Minister shaving his beard off, because,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
He's doing commercials now, right. Like, it's,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
All they're all tea leaves that read to, we're going. The fact that they, the parliament, you know, when Parliament rose a couple of weeks ago, they did the traditional thing where those that aren't returning were given a last speech. We don't do that if you're coming back to pass more legislation.
Michael LeBlanc
Oh yeah, that's interesting,
Rob Moore
Because there's all kinds of,
Michael LeBlanc
And then you had the, the opposition leader, you know, taking a stand on Canada Day, Which,
Rob Moore
Yeah,
Michael LeBlanc
Looked very much like positioning around setting in, where's the positioning going to be for the, for the big run off, right.
Rob Moore
Yeah, and they're all jockeying now. And that's,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
I think I think, I think Jagmeet wins the social game, hands down.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
He looks natural in it. He's, he's exceptionally good on the small screen, right. Like he,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
He pops on all those platforms. I think it's authentic to him. I don't think he looks like someone that, someone had to hold the camera for him. And it's (inaudible) what it is right. I think that's all good.
Michael LeBlanc
It's the old jet, it's the old, not that, not the guy on the jetski,
Rob Moore
Stockwell Day.
Michael LeBlanc
Stockwell Day on the jetski.
Rob Moore
No, I think he's, but I would struggle to handicap, to assess him is going to make great gains this, this campaign. I just don't see him resonating. I mean, I, if I had to, you know, you're asking me to predict, so I'll predict, you know, I think, I think we're into the potential of a liberal majority, with, with, with a likelihood of a minority liberal if, if there's some vote splits in certain communities that go a certain way. I, you know, the things that really upset that would be a performance by Jagmeet that, you know, swept the lower mainland and took a bunch of BC seats. Something weird happening in Quebec, where I don't think they're ever going to embrace him, and he's gonna make a breakthrough there like Jack Layton did.
And, you know, I'm not a friend or enemy of, of Erin O'Toole, but I think I can make the dispassionate assessment that he just hasn't caught on, right. Like he just had,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
Not connected and that party, that party really struggles to find a mainstream voice. In the moment, they kind of look like they're hitting that stride, they get pulled back in by, by certain parts of that party that make it awfully difficult for them to appear like they're, they're looking to a candidate that looks different than the one that, that they embrace that was 20 years ago, right. And that Canadians feel that.
And my last, my last sort of assessment of that is, to answer your first question, I don't know how he's done it, because he's been in the public eye forever and has been Prime Minister for a long time. But he has some ability to exceed expectations as a communicator, and the Prime Minister is the most effective communicator of those nat, of those national leaders, that is somewhat, you know, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a different perspective, because we've kind of seen him forever, but he still looks kind of fresh faced, and,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
And leaning forward into, into a future that we all believe in, which is an awfully tough act to pull off after you've been in power for six years, right. And I think there's pockets of Canadians that understand who he is, and are still voting for him, right. Like I think all the, all the scandals that he endures, all come back to some kind of, you know, out of touch elite accepted,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
You know, that, that they're like, 'Well, yeah, we know, he's that', right. We know he thinks he's better than us. And maybe that's because he is a little bit, right. Or something like that. And, and it doesn't seem to vote move voting behavior significantly. Now, that being said, they could, they could run or, they've run, the last campaign, the last two campaigns they've run have been very good. The liberals.
Michael LeBlanc
They've lost them, they've lost a few MPs have retired, right? A few ministers retired.
Rob Moore
Yeah,
Michael LeBlanc
They got some change on the benches, for sure.
Rob Moore
Yeah, and they've lost good ones, right. They've lost, a good ones, both in a, you know, they were competent Ministers,
Michael LeBlanc
And electable.
Rob Moore
Yeah, yeah. But also spoke to their brand, right, Catherine McKenna leaving is a, is a signal of something that is counter to what they want us to think about that place, right, and how they operate. I don't think, and that maybe it. Listen, I spent way too much paying attention, I spend way too much time paying attention to this. But I think it speaks to a larger, it's the old adage that if, if you have to tell the world, you're a feminist, maybe or, maybe you're not as much of a feminist as you think, why don't you just do it, and therefore you wouldn't have to tell us you are, right.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah. Well, there's lots of issues that that we would have liked to see, I think, more progress on that hasn't had. So, it'll be interesting to see the, the policy and the platforms and the run up. And as you say, after six years of saying I'm going to do something and nothing has been done. And will they be called to task for that? Or are we, you know.
Now, last quick question, same question, we're in Ontario, but lots of the provinces have changed leadership, a couple of big provinces, Alberta and Ontario, both have had deep questions about their leadership from the population. It sounds like we're gonna have an election in Ontario, where you and I live, the biggest province. Any, any thoughts on that? I mean, as you alluded before, there's some visceral dislike of our current Premier because of some decisions made, but will that, will that pass and will they overlook that to put them back in that chair? What do you think?
Rob Moore
He is such a unique political character that it's hard to, It's hard to predict.
Michael LeBlanc
I wouldn't predicted he would have been a Premier five years ago. That's for sure.
Rob Moore
No, no, we wouldn't have predicted he would have won the leadership. You wouldn't have predicted he'd be the Premier, like.
Michael LeBlanc
Yep, yep, yep.
Rob Moore
Listen, when he predicted his brother would be the Mayor, right. Like they are an unpredictable political family to say the least. It's, he might say my famous, you know, the famous Richard Nixon quote that the most important thing in politics is authenticity and once you can fake that you've got it made. He is an authentic dude. Like, there's not much,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
More there than what you're seeing. And at the end of the day, that gets him through a lot.
Michael LeBlanc
Yes.
Rob Moore
Now, there are a lot of forces opposed to him, right? Not, none of which is certain parts of his caucus are very angry. He's not one of them, right. Like he's not a, you know, in the trenches, spent my time around Queen's Park, I know these people well, sat on committees with them, like he's not, he doesn't have a lot of friends around the cabinet table, or the caucus.
Rob Moore
The liberal machine is still a machine, even though they’re a lump of a party, they, they still represent the natural governing party of this province. So, they're not going anywhere. And then there's lots of money out there to feed them right between teachers and others that so, you know, I would not count him out. But, I think the predictors of whether he'll be elected again, have yet to sort of materialize, particularly, as you said earlier, the dry powder. Like if the economy comes roaring back, and everyone's feeling pretty good, and,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
You know, kids get back to school and you know, all kinds of things start to,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Rob Moore
Bounce the right way, then, you know, he might, he might have a majority, you know.
Michael LeBlanc
Well, I mean, if, again, if you and I were sitting together in February, we wouldn't be saying that Canada was leading the world and vaccinations either, right, so a lot can change. A lot can change pretty quickly.
So, listen, Rob, this is such a great conversation, and long overdue and your perspectives for the listeners and your perspective on the podcast much appreciated. And, and I wish you much, much continued success. And, how can people get in touch with you or learn more about Crestview?
Rob Moore
You know, crestviewstrategy.com look us up.
Michael LeBlanc
Great email by the way. I subscribe to an email that you guys send out for provincial and federal, it's fantastic. Just the updates are great.
Rob Moore
Just, lots, lots of updates, you can go on there and pick the you know, we have an office in the UK, we have one in Washington, and we've got a perspective on Alberta, BC. Like, you can pick and choose. We won't, we won't fill your mailbox with stuff you don't want. But,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, so it's really good.
Rob Moore
Perspective, we like to, we like to give political perspective. So, if you want it, we'll give it to you.
Michael LeBlanc
All right. Well, Rob, thanks again for being on The Voice of Retail real treat after so long catching up. And once again, I wish you continued success and, and maybe we'll circle back closer to when the writs drop on both sides and get your perspective closer to the day. But until then, have an amazing summer and I wish you, I wish you well and good health.
Rob Moore
Thanks for this, is a pleasure and call anytime. Nice to catch up with you. Thanks.
Michael LeBlanc
Thanks for tuning into today's episode of The Voice of Retail. Be sure and follow the podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever you enjoy podcasts so you don't miss out on the latest episodes, industry news and insights. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a rating and review as it really helps us grow so that we continue to get amazing guests onto the show. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc.
And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co.
Until next time, stay safe. Have a great week.