Journalist, author and fashion specialist, Dana Thomas, has been reporting on the latest trends and insights in the fashion industry for over thirty years. Today I catch up with Dana on the left bank in Paris, writing for British Vogue and The New York Times - and, of course, taking the time to talk with me about the fashion retail industry and her third book ‘Fashionopolis: Why What We Wear Matters.’
Welcome to the The Voice of Retail , I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Journalist, Author and fashion specialist, Dana Thomas, has been reporting on the latest trends and insights in the fashion industry for over thirty years.
Today I catch up with Dana on the left bank in Paris, writing for British Vogue and The New York Times - and, of course, taking the time to talk with me about the fashion retail industry and her third book ‘Fashionopolis: Why What We Wear Matters.’
In a wide-ranging conversation we talk about the evolution of fashion retail (from family-owned design houses to global corporations), the future of fast fashion and what fashion retailers should do to ride the wave of a changing industry and consumer.
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven’t already, be sure and click subscribe on your favourite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week, and check out my other retail industry media properties; the Remarkable Retail podcast, the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and the Food Professor podcast. Last but not least, if you are into Barbeque, check out my all new YouTube barbecue show, Last Request Barbeque, with new episodes each and every week!
I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company & Maven Media, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co! Have a safe week everyone!
ABOUT DANA
DANA THOMAS is the author of Fashionopolis: The Price of Fast Fashion and the Future of Clothes, Gods and Kings: The Rise and Fall of Alexander McQueen and John Galliano, and the New York Times bestseller Deluxe: How Luxury Lost Its Luster, all published by Penguin Press. She began her career writing for the Style section of The Washington Post, and for fifteen years she served as a cultural and fashion correspondent for Newsweek in Paris. She is a regular contributor to The New York Times Style section and has written for The New York Times Magazine, The New Yorker, The Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, T: The New York Times Style Magazine, and Architectural Digest. In 1987, she received the Sigma Delta Chi Foundation’s Ellis Haller Award for Outstanding Achievement in Journalism. In 2016, the French Minister of Culture named Thomas a Chevalier of the Order of Arts and Letters. She lives in Paris.
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated on thought leadership panels worldwide. Michael was recently added to ReThink Retail’s prestigious Top 100 Global Retail Influencers list for 2021.
Michael is also the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts, including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus the Remarkable Retail with author Steve Dennis, Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Most recently, Michael launched Conversations with CommerceNext, a podcast focussed on retail eCommerce, digital marketing and retail careers - all available on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music and all major podcast platforms. Michael is also the producer and host of the “Last Request Barbeque” channel on YouTube where he cooks meals to die for and influencer riches.
Michael LeBlanc 00:04
Welcome to The Voice of Retail, I'm your host Michael Leblanc, and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Journalist, Author and fashion specialist, Dana Thomas, has been reporting on the latest trends and insights for over 30 years in the global fashion industry.
Today, I catch up with Dana on the left bank in Paris, writing for British Vogue and The New York Times - and, of course, taking the time to talk with me about the fashion retail industry and her third book 'Fashionopolis: Why What We Wear Matters'.
In a wide-ranging conversation, we talk about the evolution of fashion retail (from family-owned design houses to global corporations), the future of fast fashion and what fashion retailers should do to ride the wave of a changing industry and consumer.
Dana Thomas 00:45
So, you know, I love that it's becoming cool to recycle and re-ware your clothes or remake them. Princess, I think it was Princess Beatrice took a dress that was the Queen's out of the archives and recut it as her own wedding gown. That's great. And that's just showing through that you know, these clothes can have a longer life, even if you're taking it to a tailor and changing it a bit. Or maybe you're wearing it in a different fashion or.
Michael LeBlanc 01:13
Let's listen in now.
Dana, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. How are you doing this afternoon?
Dana Thomas 01:18
Wonderful. Thanks for having me.
Michael LeBlanc 01:20
And I'm really looking forward to this I, I read your book and it, it's just the, the sense your comprehensive overview of the industry but your passion clearly, for fashion, both as a, as a chronicle of the industry and, and yourself as, as a as someone who's really passionate about clothes and it really weaves its way so to speak through the book. So really looking forward to the interview. Where am I finding you today?
Dana Thomas 01:43
I'm on the left bank in Paris in my apartment.
Michael LeBlanc 01:46
Ah, so nice.
Dana Thomas 01:47
In the home office.
Michael LeBlanc 01:48
How's the weather, how's the weather there is it uh.
Dana Thomas 01:50
It's glorious today a glorious big blue sky and lots of sharp winter light.
Michael LeBlanc 01:57
Ah, fantastic. Well, I've been to Paris once and, and look forward to a, to returning again. But what a, what a wonderful place to be based. Alright, well, let's jump right in. Tell us a little bit about your background and, and what you do for a living today.
Dana Thomas 02:09
Well, I today these days, I write for the New York Times regularly as a freelance contributor to the Style section and any other part of the paper where I feel I have something to contribute. And I'm a contributing editor for British Vogue. And, and I'll be soon launching my own podcast called the Green Dream About Sustainability. That's my new year's project soon, soon on the air.
And I've been working in journalism for about 30 years. I began my career at the Washington Post in Washington under the legendary editor, Ben Bradley, and was working in the Style section, which was the writer section of the writers paper, and really learned everything I do there. I began covering fashion at the paper as an assistant to the fashion editor though that was not my ambition. I had a great ambition to be the White House correspondent or a political correspondent or maybe at the State Department. But the fashion thing sort of was fun. And so, I thought why not. And I'd love to doing arts and culture as well.
And then I married a Frenchman and moved to Paris. This is our 30th anniversary this year. And that's how I really became a fashion writer. Because when you're in Paris as one of the big businesses that you need to write about, and I worked for Newsweek for 15 years here in the Paris Bureau as a cultural and fashion correspondent for all of Europe. And that's at the time when fashion was switching from being small, independent family-owned companies, to big global conglomerations publicly traded conglomerations, and I covered all that bit by bit as it was unfolding.
So, my first book 'Deluxe: How Luxury Lost its Luster' really, details that switch from small family owned and run houses to global corporations. And I've written two other books. One's called 'Gods and Kings: The Rise and Fall of Alexander McQueen and John Galliano', and now 'Fashionopolis: The Price of Fast Fashion and the Future of Clothes'.
Michael LeBlanc 04:05
Did you always want to be a writer like in, in, in, in the sandbox, and you're a kid where you're chronicling what was happening? Like, what, what where was that spark?
Dana Thomas 04:12
Well, I I've noticed. Yeah, pretty much for a long time. I don't know if I knew I wanted to be a journalist, per se, though. I did love reading our local paper and on the Philadelphia main line, and we used to, and we visited the local paper when I was a Girl Scout. And we took a school trip to see the Philadelphia bulletin when I was a kid. And I thought that was pretty cool. But I did always want to be a writer. And I remember I wrote my first play when I was like 10 or 11 years old on a manual typewriter, and then produced it with my friends for a summer playing at the beach, and we charged everyone a dime and then went out bought ice cream.
Michael LeBlanc 04:45
Well, as I said, In the beginning, we're here to talk fashion, specifically fashion and, and retail for my audience. And our jumping off point, as you said, is your book 'Fashionopolis' what we do, or ‘What We Wear Matters’. Let's talk about the tradecraft of being an author. You're a professional writer you write all the time.
Dana Thomas 04:59
I write all the time.
Michael LeBlanc 04:59
You write all the time, right, that's your that's your gig, you have a big canvas, New York Times, British Vogue, what promote what, what prompted you to write the book what your second book, so you'd already had the experience process.
Dana Thomas 05:13
Actually, my third book.
Michael LeBlanc 05:14
Third book. So, you clearly already had the experience of the process. What, what whitespace were you trying to fill in the show for this particular book?
Dana Thomas 05:23
Well, like everything I do, I'm always trying to figure out what's next. That's my job. You know, I'm a writer, but as a journalist, and a cultural journalist and us, you know, and I, I sort of see myself as a social anthropologist, I try to figure out what's coming next simply by paying attention, observing, talking to people, listening, reading. And for me, what was coming next was sustainability and what we call eco ethics or conscious consumerism. In, in the fashion business.
And it was just things little things here and there that I kept picking up that I would see a small article about company’s reshoring, bringing their businesses, their manufacturing back to the United States into places like the Carolinas. I thought, that's interesting. And so, I clipped it and like literally clipped it, or, you know, from the newspaper, or I'd print it out, and I put it in a file on my desk, and I just, you know. Whenever something like caught my attention, or you know, that the there was a rise in organic cotton production and, and use. Or I'd see an, an interesting story about a, a blue jeans company that is decided to, you know, craft real craftsmanship and heritage kinds of blue jeans with organic cotton and natural indigo. I was like, hmm, that's really interesting. Or I read about the denim industry in Japan, and I thought and how they do things the old-fashioned way. And they took all the old Levi's machines when the Levi's factories closed and moved them to Japan, so they could do beautiful Levi's style jeans. But in Japan, and I thought, that's interesting.
Dana Thomas 06:53
So, I just sort of dropped all this stuff in this file, and kept thinking about it and noodling it. And then it just suddenly came together as a, as a proper proposal for my publisher, Penguin Press. Where I said, you know, the next thing was coming, you know, we talk about sustainability in the food business. And I've been watching and reading about that, you know, the organic movement in that realm. And I said, you know, with the Kyoto Kyoto Accords, and the Paris Climate Agreement, this is, this is the next place, because the fashion industry is not prepared whatsoever, and it has to pivot. And, and there are some sort of small places that are starting to pivot ahead and will pull the industry in that direction.
A lot of the reporting and work I did on the book was happening, as you know, I was reporting things as they were happening. Like when I started working on the book, the company that I later write about, that's spinning synthetic silk in laboratories and growing, you know, mushroom root leather, mycelium. It didn't exist, or if it did exist, it wasn't doing that, or it hadn't gotten to that point yet. But in the three years that I worked on the book, some of these startups managed to get to a point where they were worth highlighting, and now they're becoming major corporations and major players in the fashion business. So, it was really cool to be there. Like I went to see a, a factory in Manchester that I read about in one of the British papers that was spinning cotton for the first time new the first new spinning mill cotton mill in the UK in since World War II. And it turns out, I called them I said, can I come see you? And they said, yes. And it turns out, I was there the first day they were running the machines. So, you know, it was it kind of was like a moving target, in a sense, because I had to make sure that what I was writing about wasn't going to be outdated or somebody wasn't going to go under, which is a hard thing to do, especially before the pandemic. And actually a few of the people I spotlight in the book didn't make it through the pandemic, sadly. But I know they'll be back and doing good work if under another name, and sometime soon.
Dana Thomas 09:00
And that, you know, and to highlight things like the rental business, I could see that that was going to be growing fast in the. I was reading, you know, banking studies and marketing studies and consulting reports saying that, you know, rental is on the rise is going to be on the rise, we predict it'll be this in 5 years and 10 years. And so that's when I said right, we got to do something on that. And the same with resale, and the, and the whole rise of repair and reuse and recycling of, of clothing.
So, you know, just by reading the trades and following the consultancies and reports, but also getting out with my notebook like I do an old school reporter. I really did dig down and find out what was happening and try to tell you what's coming down the pike and why you need to pay attention to it.
Michael LeBlanc 09:44
There's so many, so many thoughts out of that, you know, just that, that, you know, you, you basically follow breadcrumbs together and it comes together as a story. I mean, and it's another interesting wave of, of information. There's a lot of these companies you mentioned, whether it's, rental or whether it's recycling, or doing IPOs. And that's a whole other level of transparency into the business model, right? I mean, there's a there's a whole other amount of information and, and you're right about technology moving so fast. I was reading, for one of my other podcasts on food the, in Singapore, a lot of this, you know, manufactured lab grown meat. Which is, you know, the, the technology to grow things from next to nothing. And I and your mycelium example is so fascinating.
Dana Thomas 10:25
Absolutely. You know what, one of the great success stories that I spotlight in the book and it's just grown so wonderfully well. Is I went, my very first reporting trip for the book was to Nashville because I knew that Nashville was a, was a hub for the fashion industry in America. You don't think of it that because it's such a Music City. But it's actually also a fashion hub. Los Angeles is the largest manufacturing and fashion hub in America. Now more than New York, New York, is second and Nashville is third.
So, I went there and I met this lovely young woman named Sarah Bellows, who is first company to be growing and producing natural indigo in the United States in more than 100 years. At a commercial level. There's lots of artisans doing it, but this is like at a commercial level to work with mills and get them to dyeing things. And she was really just getting going when I went to see her and she had just landed her first major contract then with Cone Denim, which has since closed. But she has teamed up with Levi's, and they are now working to introduce natural indigo at mills for dyeing throughout the world. From this little national startup to globally supplying the natural indigo to the entire denim industry. And it you can switch out your synthetic indigo, which is very toxic to natural indigo, and it will use the same machines, you don't have to do anything differently. And actually, hers is cheaper. So, so this.
Michael LeBlanc 11:52
[inaudible]
Dana Thomas 11:52
This is a huge, huge, huge, you know, like she's grown so much in, in the five years since I went to see her, I'm really glad I got her in the book.
Michael LeBlanc 12:01
You mentioned Levi's, it comes up a few times in the book. And I worked for Levi's for a little bit. And I was there in the day where the philosophy was, we're going to make product and every market that we sell it in.
Dana Thomas 12:12
Right.
Michael LeBlanc 12:12
And you talk about that, and the roll back and, and I lived through some of those days. So, talk about that a little bit, because I think it is a, a good example the pressures that are under companies. And, and you know, Levi's was a very, you know, it's a fam basically a family-based company that had very strong ethics, but was pulled in different directions by this the, the dynamics of the industry.
Dana Thomas 12:33
Absolutely. And in fact, what happened is that Levi's brought in a CEO. It was the first non-family CEO in the 1990s. And he came from the, the, the soda industry, I think he like ran Mountain Dew or something.
Michael LeBlanc 12:50
Yeah.
Dana Thomas 12:50
And from PepsiCo or Coca Cola. And he applied those same business stratagems to Levi's, and it was an utter disaster. He laid off 25,000 people in, in, in a matter of a year or two.
Michael LeBlanc 13:06
Yeah.
Dana Thomas 13:06
He closed all of the factories in the United States. He changed Levi's from being a company that produce things, to being a company that just designs and sells stuff. And they outsourced all of their production. And it's not that they just outsourced it, like off, off short, but they like just contracted. They got rid of their own factories, and they just hired independent contractors who had, you know, who barely made meet basic safety and health and human rights standards. And it really, really tarnished Levi's reputation as being an ethical company, because the ethics were thrown out the window.
But more than that, you could see the difference in the quality of the product. They also cut the quality of you know, you know, the in things like thread and yarn and yarn for weaving and the fabric and the dye. You could just see that it was not the same quality. And so, sales went down and they and they lost their sales to all these startup brands who were doing what they used to do.
Michael LeBlanc 14:10
Yeah.
Dana Thomas 14:10
Which was make beautiful crafted high quality premium denim jeans. And, and they had to fight back to get that market back. They're back now.
Michael LeBlanc 14:20
Yeah.
Dana Thomas 14:20
Because they brought in a wonderful CEO named Chip Bergh, who said, let's get the ship back on track where it, where it was, and, and let's pull those ethics back into how we run the business. And.
Michael LeBlanc 14:33
I remember the day because, you know it we, I again, I, I lived through it in the late 90s. So, I was part of a.
Dana Thomas 14:38
That was a disaster.
Michael LeBlanc 14:39
And, and the pressure though was, on the one hand you had the Gap, who was on the, on the rise.
Dana Thomas 14:45
Right.
Michael LeBlanc 14:45
And on the other hand, you had a lot of designer jeans and, and the feeling was we weren't moving fast enough. I mean, we I lost track of the 50 whatever's, which is a whole other naming convention disaster. But you know, the, the, the idea was, we, we can't get the we can't get out in front of these small designers. And it, it just, I'm, I'm kind of picking on Levi's a little bit because it does capture this, the stress, the stress and pressures that are under, you know, midsize fashion houses, I think, to, you know, to be fashion forward, but at the same time to kind of pull it together and be and be on price point as well. Whatever their price point is, right.
Dana Thomas 15:20
Yeah, absolutely. The, the irony, of course, and that's why I wanted to spotlight them. Was that.
Michael LeBlanc 15:25
Mm hmm.
Dana Thomas 15:25
Blue jeans were the original sustainable garment.
Michael LeBlanc 15:29
Yeah.
Dana Thomas 15:29
They were the built to last forever. They were for, they were created for miners, crawling around in the rubble in silver and gold mines. And during the California gold rush. And they were passed down from miner to miner when you struck gold, that you gave, you know, your guys your old pants, and you went back into town and lived it up and took a bath. So, you know [inaudible].
Michael LeBlanc 15:53
[inaudible] made with rivets, the pockets were riveted I mean.
Dana Thomas 15:55
Yeah, those rivets were there for a purpose, they were to hold the pockets together for eternity. And every once in a while, they, an old pair is found they was recently the oldest pair ever discovered was found in an old mine. And, and I think Levi's bought them for their for the archives. You know, they're like 160 years old or something crazy like that. So, the fact that Levi's compromised, not only the integrity of the business and their ethics, but also of the product itself. Which was the most and made it the most polluting and garment there was by using synthetic indigo that, that's made of, you know, cyanide and formaldehyde, and is incredibly toxic, and is dumped into rivers and kills rivers. And then they were using, you know, this conventional cotton, which is sprayed with herbicides and pesticides, and maybe even.
Michael LeBlanc 16:46
Yeah, cotton's a big, cotton's a big [inaudible] you know, environmental disaster.
Dana Thomas 16:50
It can be.
Michael LeBlanc 16:51
It can be right, right, right.
Dana Thomas 16:51
It can be. And, and, you know, might even be sourced from China picked by forced labor. And by the [inaudible]. I mean, like, you know, everything, they just turn, and then they want you to burn through them, they start making them out of with thinner denim, so it doesn't last as long. And then, of course, pre-washing them, so they don't last as long.
You know, in the old days, when we bought our 501s, you sort of staggered your purchases of them, because it would take you a good six months to break them in. Right. So, but, but, but then when they, you did, they were fantastic.
Michael LeBlanc 17:21
[inaudible]
Dana Thomas 17:21
And my daughter still wears my old Levi's from the 80s. And they look great.
Michael LeBlanc 17:27
Well, well they last forever, which is. it's actually in an interesting paradox because as you talk about a couple times in the book, you know, you liked you, you're, you're a consumer yourself. And it's, it's fun to go shopping and, and you know, just durability element of fashion. And, you know, it comes through in the, in the tips, your tips, you know, what can you do at the end of the book. Is this paradox is I like fashion, I like shopping. But then product, some of these products lasts forever, and you don't need to shop. I loved your tip about shop your own closet, it gets to a point where you know, close your eyes go back into your closet, you might have what you're looking for already in the closet.
Dana Thomas 18:01
Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 18:02
Now this goes against, this goes against where you start the book, talking about fast fashion. Which has got its own dynamics, and you participate in that I want something new you start the book out talking about that. Is where does your hopes stem in the industry? I mean, the industry is very complex. I mean, it's interesting that you wanted to cover in your early days of journalism, you wanted to cover politics, I think the, the fashion industry is almost equally complex in terms of [inaudible] right.
Dana Thomas 18:30
Oh, it is politics and business. You know, that's what I realized when I was working on the fashion desk of the Washington Post. That in the end fashion is politics and business as well.
Michael LeBlanc 18:39
Yeah.
Dana Thomas 18:39
So, you know, it, it completely, it completely makes sense. Now, what I hope for what I is to go back to this idea that when we buy something we buy it because we love it and we and we want to have not just a, a lustful encounter with it. But we want to fall deeply in love and, and, and marry it or at least have a really long love affair with it. And so, and not just clothes but everything that the whole idea of the throwaway culture becomes completely out of fashion. Be from your Bic pen and your BIC lighter to your, your H&M dress that only cost $9.99. That you know if, if, an, a garment costs more to dry clean than you paid for it, you paid too little for it. And you should not be buying, I mean that's just trash right? So.
Michael LeBlanc 19:28
Now, now, now is that is this influencer culture. Instagram. We know how important Instagram is. You're, you're a journalist. New York Times has a fantastic digital property. And British Vogue as well, I was on, on the site. But is, is that in and of itself created a momentum spinning away from durability. Because I gotta have something new on every image. Is that, is that now inculcated into the culture so much that it's going to be tough to, to get out of?
Dana Thomas 19:54
I think so. But we have some influencers who are, who are doing this. And I have to say it was funny because one of my colleagues at British Vogue say when we there we were sitting at the fashion shows reading your book in the front row going, oh my gosh, what are we doing here? And, you know, sort of having an existential crisis. And I thought, well, good that, that's a good thing.
And but you know, there's my favorite movement is towards re-wear. By, by celebrities, the most famous being, of course, the Duchess of Cambridge, Kate Middleton, who re-wears things all the time. And you'll see her in a McQueen coat at one event, and then she'll wear it as a coat, you know, she'll wear it with pants, you wear it with a dress, she’ll wear it for an official thing, she'll wear to church she'll wear it out, you know, like, and that's great. And the same thing with some celebrities. Now, when Cate Blanchett was the president of the Venice Film Festival, everything she wore on the red carpet during those 15 days in Venice, was something that out of her closet that she'd worn somewhere before, except for one outfit, which was create was just for the event and then was auctioned off to benefit Venice.
So, you know, I love that it's becoming cool to recycle and re-ware your clothes. Or remake them. Princess, I think it was Princess Beatrice took a dress that was the Queen's out of the archives and recut it as her own wedding gown. That's great. And that's just showing through that, you know, these clothes can have a longer life, even if you're taking it to a tailor and changing it a bit. Or maybe you're wearing it in a different fashion. Or, you know, they keep saying the 90s are back in fashion. Boy is my daughter happy because I have a whole closet full of really great Gucci from the 90s. And she's like, yeah, I'm so glad you kept it, mama. But that's [inaudible].
Michael LeBlanc 21:42
Well [inaudible] now this is.
Dana Thomas 21:43
I bought things that were great to begin with. And I've kept them 20 years, and they still are in good shape. And they look cool.
Michael LeBlanc 21:49
You were able to invest in. Now is as a retailer, you know, we find new product, of course spins the flywheel of success, right. What you see on the runway, finds its way down into the shop floor. And, and that is what drives the industry and drives the economy. So, can these things peacefully coexist together? This re-ware [inaudible].
Dana Thomas 22:08
I think so, I mean, there's a whole talk not just in fashion, but in all of business about degrowth. That we have to get to a point where we're producing less and, and, you know, sadly, making less money but making less money in a better way. And so degrowth is, but particularly making less stuff, because we need to throw away less stuff. So, you have to make something that lasts a long time, that is really worth investing in and paying more for.
We've never paid less than we do today for clothes. People are like I can't afford it to pay more for clothes. Actually, you can afford to pay more for clothes, you've just been conditioned to think you can't. And I say that because I've done some studies on this. And I, I cite them in the book where, you know, 30 years ago, we devoted far more of our annual household budget to close than we do today. Double digits versus single digits of percentage in of our clothes. I can't remember exactly how much but it was sort of, say 14% of our annual budget was dedicated to buying clothes. And now it's about you know, 5 or 6.
So, half we're and we're spending, but we're buying five times more clothes than we did 30 years ago. On half the budget. So that tells you that we can actually afford to pay more for clothes, we just been taught to believe, conditioned to believe, that it's normal to pay $20 for a dress, or even $1 or 2 for bathing suit. Which is just not true. If you do that, that means someone along the line is not getting paid what they should be paid. Actually, everybody along the line. And when you say you're not you can't afford to pay more for clothes, you're actually contributing to your own budget cutting. Because if you are devaluating, the devaluing the what everybody along the supply chain does to make that dress, you don't think it's worth paying more than $20 for that dress. That means that everybody along the supply chain was not paid what they were worth, and you may in your way be part of that supply chain. Or if not, you're still contributing to the devaluing of work. And, and that's a really important big think to think about.
Michael LeBlanc 24:28
Yeah, I mean, and it's, I really want to pull that thread so to speak. And because you've got this, this realization, I think I don't know that this one question I wanted to ask you. So, we've, we've gone through a couple of years of COVID era, maybe we're in the last stretch of it, who knows. But I have to think that that's had some impact on consumers shopping and buying behavior and psychology. I was reading an article, a report by EY and interviewed the author and they talked about what you bring up a couple of times. Conscience consumption, and their conclusion from the data global data was that, you know, one of the impacts of the COVID era was that people are going to be more conscious or conscientious about what they spend, maybe spend the same amount. But as you describe, you know, go up to good, better and best. Do you do you think, from your observations? And I'm sure you've been writing about this. What do you think the COVID era is really going to do in the fashion industry? Do you think it will be that kind of a, you know that we're part of the supply chain? We are the we the decisions we make matter, here and around the world? Do you think that's coming into consciousness more now?
Dana Thomas 25:35
I think it is, in part because. I made a lot of noise and my colleagues in the fashion industry, who cover it from a more sociological point of view, made a lot of noise about how some brands were not paying their bills in Bangladesh. I think it was $40 billion worth of bills that were not paid, and the clothes just sat on the docks, rotting, and the people were sent home for the factories, and they were starving.
So, there's been a lot of noise made about just the bad the bad behavior of some fashion brands. But more than, than. I mean, we all had hoped that people's shopping behaviors would change. And then by September, this year, so what, three, two or three months coming out of this pandemic, we thought. H&M and Zara's sales were back up to pre-pandemic levels. Like we just went back to what we were doing.
What's going to really change things, is the Paris Climate Agreement and pivoting to a more sustainable world. And I went to COP26, in Glasgow, and saw and listened to several people speaking on the subject and went to panels. And you know, and really got into and realize that this is the future actually. And that's going to have more of an impact than a pandemic. The pandemic, it's, you know, it's a blip in history, but we're actually shifting the way businesses do business. We're going to get rid of polyester in the supply chain, simply because it's made of petroleum, and we won't have the petroleum to make polyester. We're going to get rid of polyester, because it's plastic. That's how we're going to make the changes. And, and therefore we're going to have more organic cotton, because we won't be allowed to, through all these deals to lower the toxic impact of agriculture, to spray those herbicides and pesticides on the cotton anymore, that makes it so toxic. And we're going to pivot to organic cotton, because it's cleaner, and you'll get government subsidies to do so. That's how the business is going to change. It's not going to be, be because, you know, people said, oh, it's just not right to be shopping at Zara anymore. And we got to think more responsibly as a consumer, it's going to be forced on us.
Michael LeBlanc 27:49
Right, so, hence, hence, hence your podcast, right? I mean, basically [inaudible].
Dana Thomas 27:52
Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 27:53
And where you's where you started about. I want, you spent a lot of time in factories where the product is made. And I have a bit of experience in, in what we call strategic sourcing. And, and I want to talk about these two philosophies. I want to see where you land on it. The philosophy one, was we work with partners around the world, and sometimes they, they make mistakes, or they do things that we don't like. And the two philosophies are one, one strike you're out, you know, you locked the door, you did whatever, we're going to move on. The second was, we're going to work with you, and we're going to tag you for it. But if we keep moving vendors, it's just going to move the same people around to different places.
Dana Thomas 28:31
Right.
Michael LeBlanc 28:31
And we'll never really improve the situation. Do you, do you have a perspective on which strategy. Like if you were in the buying office of a major retailer, and you know, you discovered, unfortunately, that something you didn't like was happening in a, in a factory around the world. Would you say that's it, you're done? Or would you say listen, that's, that's strike one. You have two more strikes, let's work together to figure it out. What would you what would you do?
Dana Thomas 28:52
Oh, no, I'd totally pull out.
Michael LeBlanc 28:55
No question, no question, that's it.
Dana Thomas 28:56
No question [inaudible]. And in fact, you know, I'd make sure beforehand, I'd do the due diligence beforehand and, and go visit and make sure that they were. I mean, I've visited factories.
Michael LeBlanc 29:07
Yeah.
Dana Thomas 29:07
In Bangladesh and in Vietnam, as I just discuss in the book. And, you know, once you walk in, you know. And I went to see this sweatshop. I was off the plane half an hour and I was already in a sweatshop. And there was a jeans company, jeans brand I knew the name of being produced there. And I think they have no idea their clothes are being made in that sweatshop. I think that they have somebody on the ground who does all their sourcing for them who hooked them up and said this place is. And you go on the website and the website makes the place look fantastic. And you know, you're halfway around the world and you're like, okay, I this is why I pay my man on the ground. So, I trust him.
Michael LeBlanc 29:43
Yeah.
Dana Thomas 29:43
No, you got to go do the diligence. Due diligence yourself. You got to go to. If you're going to produce Bangladesh, you got to go look at your factory. Tommy Hilfiger was horrified to learn that his clothes were being made in Bangladesh. He didn't even know they were and they were. And then the factory caught on fire and he said we will never let this happen again. He didn't know anything, if you're going to be if you're going to put your name on the label, you should know where your clothes are being made and who's making them and you should get on the plane and go.
Michael LeBlanc 30:10
Yeah, it's, it's actually, on a side note, it's a bit tougher these days. I was talking to some retailers. And, and, you know, it's just tougher to get on a plane and go to these places in the COVID era. And it is one of the things.
Dana Thomas 30:19
Right.
Michael LeBlanc 30:19
They're worried about. Is, as you say, you know, buyers, when they buy stuff, they don't want to see samples in the hotel room. They want to walk the floor, they because they understand the connection between, you know, they, they want to see where to made, they want to.
Dana Thomas 30:30
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 30:31
They don't want to buy from a sample because that gets. Trouble can follow from that.
Dana Thomas 30:35
And wonderfully, the state of California just passed a law that is holding brands now accountable for human rights and labor infractions in the state of California. If you are not paying minimum wage to your workers in a factory, in a sweatshop, in California. Generally, brands would say, oh, we didn't know it was subcontracted, we lost track of the supply chain. Which is bunk because they know everything about everything all the time. And it's in the same town, if you can't keep track of your supply chain within the city limits, you're you've got a serious problem. So, you know, they're now saying, well, the, the brands who say that's not our problem and, and take it up with the guy who owns the factory. But now [inaudible].
Michael LeBlanc 31:22
I don't, I don't think a lot of, do you think a lot of brands. I mean, you know have to rein in after all these things at a minimum, I think a lot of brands. Do you think they think like that? I think they, at a minimum they worry that the market says we're going to get our brand will be tarnished. If even if they're not thinking of the humanity behind it.
Dana Thomas 31:36
Yeah, no, they it's just about money. So now, and that's what and that's what the state of California said, it's just about money. Therefore, if your factory is paying everybody $2 an hour, and the minimum wage is $15 an hour, we are now holding the brand responsible for that extra $13 an hour per person. Ouch. So that makes them think find out where their clothes are being made. And everyone's being treated properly. If the place is a deathtrap, if it's a fire trap. They're going to be held responsible. They're, it's not just the factory owners, it's also the brands.
This is huge. Now why is this huge? California, California is what the sixth largest economy in the world. And it's one of the largest. It's the largest garment.
Michael LeBlanc 32:18
Largest in America, right? As you say in the book.
Dana Thomas 32:20
In, in the United States. And they're holding this accountable within California. But I think it's even at some point, they're gonna then say, if you're importing your clothes to California, you got to meet our standards. They're, they're drawing up laws like that in Europe. Germany's talking is negotiating or debating a law like this. Where they're saying, if you're going to import stuff to Germany, you have to make sure your factories meet German standards, not just Bangladeshi standards, which are so substandard. And that's really, really. These are, these are big, big laws and regulations that are will have an enormous impact on the business and, and needed, quite frankly needed.
Michael LeBlanc 33:00
Well, you know, you've got you give out some advice and some tips at the, at the end of your book. What's your advice to retailers who are listening around fashion? I mean, it's a big industry, there's, you know, these, these my listeners are in the retail industry. They're whether they're Levi's or whether they're a brand, you would know or they're a Canadian brand. They're trying to satisfy their customers. They're trying to, you know, spend the flywheel of the economy. They're doing all these things; they're connected to fashion. What's your advice to the retailers listening around the fashion industry [inaudible]?
Dana Thomas 33:31
Well, I mean, it's really simple, I think. It's, you know, there's a lot of talk about traceability and transparency now. And transparency is a new big buzzword, but you know, you need to be transparent. Well, why aren't you transparent? Are you hiding something? If you're hiding something, you should ask yourself, why are we hiding this? What are we hiding? Otherwise, you should make everything available to your consumers to know, because there's nothing worth hiding.
That's a really crazy thought, right? But if you think about it, it's not. But businesses never told consumers what this is really made of, or how this was really made. Because why? They're hiding stuff from you. So, if you've got to, if you haven't, if you're not transparent, you should ask yourself why. And if you're a retailer, and you're carrying a brand and they're not being upfront with you, you should ask why. And if they're unable to be 100% upfront with you and, and, and offer the supply chain from beginning to end. You might want to question working with them, quite honestly.
I'm, I'm working on a piece right now about traceability of digital IDs. Prince Charles has come up with, is launching or has just launched at the G20. A digital ID that will track. Trace the life of a garment from factory floor to beyond. There's another company called Provenance in the UK that's doing it from field to form, as we say, or dirt to dress. So, you know not only. And there's a great company in the UK called Sheep Inc, where they can take that sweater, there's a little tag on your sweater, and you can find out, not only where the wool came from, but from what sheep it came from, and when it was sheared, and when it you know, got his vaccinations and though and you can adopt your sheep.
So, you know, if I think that retailers should be more open to working with brands that are transparent, and be hesitant to work with those who aren't. It's not just about fashion in what it looks like. But it's also about the, the products integrity, and conscious consumerism, consumerism is about integrity, from top to bottom. And I think that that's what we lost in, in globalization. And particularly the globalization of the, of the fashion industry is the integrity of the product and the integrity of the message, and the integrity of the brand and the company. That they sacrifice their integrity for the sake of profit. And if you really want to be modern and be providing conscious consumerism, products that they can purchase without worry and have true eco ethics, then integrity is the most important element.
Michael LeBlanc 36:16
Well, my guest is Danna Thomas, the book is 'Fashionopolis: Why What We Wear Matters', your third book, where can folks keep up with your day to day you talk about New York Times and British Vogue. Are you on, are you on Insta, the platforms and your [inaudible]?
Dana Thomas 36:30
I am, Instagram and Twitter. I am, my handle is @danathomasparis. And when I came up with that my husband said, but what if we don't live in Paris? And I said, my darling, Paris is a state of mind.
Michael LeBlanc 36:42
Very good. Well, listen, thanks so much for joining me on The Voice of Retail. It was a great discussion. Fantastic. Such an interesting industry under such change. And so great to talk to you about it. And, and I look forward to listening to your podcast and, and following you. So once again [inaudible].
Dana Thomas 36:57
The Green Dream with Dana Thomas coming in 2022.
Michael LeBlanc 37:01
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure and clicking subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically, twice a week. And check out my other retail industry media properties; the Remarkable Retail Podcast, the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and the Food Professor Podcast with Dr. Silva Charlebois. Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my all-new YouTube BBQ show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week.
I'm your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company & Maven Media. And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co! Have a safe week everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
fashion, levi, book, inaudible, british vogue, factory, brands, clothes, business, buying, industry, supply chain, paris, talk, people, podcast, fashion industry, organic cotton, reading, pandemic