I’m celebrating my 300th episode of the podcast with an interview with a celebrated retail innovator in Canada, co-founder of the innovative, award-winning Frank & Oak, Ethan Song. Ethan joins me with Frank & Oak in the rearview mirror to talk about thoughts on post-COVID retail and his latest venture, RareCircles.
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
I’m celebrating my 300th episode of the podcast with an interview with a celebrated retail innovator in Canada, co-founder of the innovative, award-winning Frank & Oak, Ethan Song.
Ethan joins me with Frank & Oak in the rearview mirror to talk about thoughts on post-COVID retail and his latest venture, RareCircles’. His mission with RareCircles is to empower a new generation of entrepreneurs and brands to build deeper relationships with their communities through NFTs and blockchain technology. But what does all that even mean? Why should retailers even pay attention to NFTs and Web 3.0? Ethan gives us the 101 and then the advanced lesson on what comes next.
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven’t already, be sure and click subscribe on your favourite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week, and check out my other retail industry media properties; the Remarkable Retail podcast, the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and the Food Professor podcast. Last but not least, if you are into BBQ, check out my all new YouTube barbecue show, Last Request Barbeque, with new episodes each and every week!
I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company & Maven Media, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co! Have a safe week everyone!
About Ethan
I am a builder of technology and companies. I’m passionate about understanding human behaviour and creating digital solutions and products that have the potential to make things 100x greater. I’m deeply interested by the large-scale transformation that is reshaping industries today. I believe in the power of technology and business as a force for good.
My previous company, Frank And Oak, is a leading apparel brand focused on sustainability and climate change. I’m extremely proud of our commitment towards not only reducing our carbon footprint but towards promoting conservation. As Frank And Oak’s CEO, I also led the efforts to create a highly personalized digital shopping experience that is powered by artificial intelligence. Frank And Oak has been named the most innovative company In retail by Fast Company as well as the fastest growing company by Deloitte Fast50. I'm grateful for the amazing team we built and the top tier investors that believed in us.
Prior to this, I was involved in building strategic plans and technology strategies for companies like Rio Tinto, Van Houtte, Domtar, the Ottawa Hospital and the SAQ. Born in China, I’ve lived and worked in most continents and have built a true appreciation for the richness of our world.
My interests reside in Web3, Commerce Enablement, Consumer and Financial services.
I am currently working on a new company and investing in early stage start-ups.
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated on thought leadership panels worldwide. Michael was recently added to ReThink Retail’s prestigious Top 100 Global Retail Influencers for a second year in 2022.
Michael is also the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts, including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus the Remarkable Retail with author Steve Dennis, Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Most recently, Michael launched Conversations with CommerceNext, a podcast focussed on retail eCommerce, digital marketing and retail careers - all available on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music and all major podcast platforms. Michael is also the producer and host of the “Last Request Barbeque” channel on YouTube where he cooks meals to die for and influencer riches.
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 00:12
I'm celebrating my 300th episode of the podcast with an interview with a celebrated retail innovator in Canada, co-founder of the innovative award-winning Frank & Oak, Ethan Song. Ethan joins me with Frank & Oak in the rearview mirror, to talk about his thoughts on post-COVID retail and his latest venture RareCircles.
Michael LeBlanc 00:30
His mission with RareCircles is to empower a new generation of entrepreneurs and brands to build deeper relationships with their communities through NFTs and blockchain technology. But with all that, even me? Why should retailers even pay attention to NFTs and Web 3.0. Ethan gives us the 101 and then the advanced lesson on what comes next.
Ethan Song 00:50
By setting a total number of NFTs you're, you're effectively creating the exactly idea of ownership, which means there are only a certain amount. Now that amount can be a very high number, but it's still not infinite.
Michael LeBlanc 01:02
Right. And, and that's, I guess what what's provocative or what's interesting for retailers who will as you know, you know, oh, too well, you know, retailers, we're all looking for something a bit exclusive, some-, something limited, something differentiated.
Ethan, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. How are you this afternoon?
Ethan Song 01:19
Great. Thanks for inviting me.
Michael LeBlanc 01:20
Well, I have to say this is an interview that I've been waiting years to have. I've been admirer of, of yours and a, as a retailer, as an innovator. So, I'm really thrilled to, to get you on the microphone. So, thanks for making time. And you got a new venture and I got so many questions. It's just fantastic. So, thanks again for joining me.
Ethan Song 01:41
Of course.
Michael LeBlanc 01:42
All right. Well, let's, you know, for the listeners I know of you well. But let's for the listeners, let's jump right in and tell us a bit about yourself, your background and what you're doing today?
Ethan Song 01:55
Yeah, absolutely. I'm in short, I come from more of a technical background, I studied Computer Engineering at UBC, I originally actually emigrated to Canada from China.
Ethan Song 02:04
And the interesting part is that my dad was in a technology space. My mom was actually in the retail space, she owned and operated a single shop. And I guess, you know, I was kind of born into this sort of like mix of technology and retail, and that's always there that I was passionate about.
Ethan Song 02:20
And so, you know, upon graduating, I worked for a short amount of time at Deloitte in Technology Strategy, and after that basically took the startup entrepreneurship route.
Ethan Song 02:30
And for the last like 10 or 12 years, I've dabbled in a mix of software, as well as retail slash, you know, brand, you know, activities, I would say I'm mostly known for having built and, and founded Frank & Oak, which was direct-to-consumer menswear brand, which, you know, over time evolved to include women's wear as well.
Ethan Song 02:51
I departed the company in early 2020, and I was mostly working, I would say, as an advisor and (inaudible) investor for a while. And in the past year, I've launched a new venture in the nascent NFT space. And so, I, I definitely consider I'm still in commerce, but in digital goods, commerce now. And so, I, I think we can talk about how those two connect.
Michael LeBlanc 03:16
Yeah, yeah. Well, you're very humble when you say you dabbled in entrepreneurship. I mean, really? Frank & Oak was a breakthrough retailer. So, you know, not, not many of us get a chance to do that. It's interesting that you are a hybrid of, of your parents, right? The both the technology and the retail.
Michael LeBlanc 03:31
Well, let's talk about RareCircles. We're talking about it. I have so many questions and NFTs and, and blockchain and, and cryptocurrency and all that, it seems all wrapped up, you've got some funding behind you, let's talk about it. Tell us the origin story. What's the value proposition? And, and let's just dive in.
Ethan Song 03:47
Yeah, I mean, I obviously, you know, having, having grown a business, you know, in the eCommerce ecosystem, obviously, I've seen the growth of platform like Shopify, even like email me and mail marketing platforms and messaging platforms, and how effectively the ability to lower costs and increase distribution can basically create brand new businesses. And, and so I, I was one of those entrepreneurs that benefited from the lowering of costs and increasing distribution in eCommerce.
Ethan Song 04:17
And so, after I left, Frank & Oak I was basically looking for, I would say, the next frontier, where I thought that commerce creativity and, and you know, the overall global distribution of goods and content was going to move into and I had already been an investor investing and, you know, blockchain as well, as Web3 space and so it was kind of like a perfect fit, where I felt that I could bring something to this space while still learning from where the overall industry is going. And, and as it relates to NFT specifically, I'm a pretty firm believer that it will be a transformative technology and now whatever we're seeing right now, right, the early realization of NFTs whether it's you know, trading of baseball cards or, you know, a PFP projects, I think those are just like early signs of what the technology can deliver. But I think we haven't even, you know seen the tip of the iceberg yet.
Michael LeBlanc 05:12
Well, for the listeners who may not be as familiar, I mean, it's hard to imagine anyone hasn't heard of NF-, NFTs. But there's a whole different thing to understand them. Give us an NFT 101 and then we'll get into the more advanced discussion around it. I mean, a, i, i, if I was to say it is a collectible that has Blockchain behind it, so you know, it's authentic. Is that as simple as we can understand, or am I simplifying it too much?
Ethan Song 05:38
No, I, I, I think that's really what it is. I think, you know, my, my simple definition of it is an NFT is something that you can own in a digital world, right? So, it's bringing the idea of ownership into the digital space, where if I own a certain digital good, well, you can't own it, because I own it. Whereas previously, you know, songs or content, you know, they're basically freely distributed. And isn't this idea of ownership. And so once you bring ownership into the digital space that opens up basically a variety of opportunities.
Ethan Song 06:11
And, you know, as it relates to retail, and brands, specifically, I think there are two opportunities. There are many, many opportunities in the, in the future. But I think, admittedly, I think there's (inaudible) opportunities that if I were still a brand I would look at, I think there's, you know, number one, the one that, you know, we're hearing the most about, which is this idea of the Metaverse and, and digital goods overall, you know, you'll, you'll see people talk about digital clothing, digital accessories, filters, you know, in VR, AR, Snapchat or these kind of new, you know, Metaverse worlds like Roblox or Fortnite, and we're already seeing some large brands partake in those. I think that's one opportunity. I, my feeling to that is, it's going to be a massive market, but it's going to take a while before it takes off into something that is, you know, truly a revenue driver. I think right now, it's definitely more of a marketing and, and a kind of PR stunts for a lot of brands. The second piece, -
Michael LeBlanc 07:04
feels like, feels like cloud cover to me. I mean, you know, you, you mentioned Web3 and Metaverse. Are they the same in your minds? I mean, again, I, I don't want to grind you down and definitions. But I think it's kind of important. We you know, everyone throws around Web3 and, and Metaverse.
Ethan Song 07:20
(Crossover talk), I don't think they're the same. I think that, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 07:22
Talk about, talk about (inaudible), -
Ethan Song 07:25
Yeah, I think the Metaverse is, is one realization of wha-, what Web3 could be. I mean, look the, even a definition of what 3 is, you know, it's not clear. I think, you know, Web 2.0. You know, if you think that like Web-One, you know what Web 1.0 is basically the ability for, you know, an online platform to communicate one-to-one, you know, what its audience and Web 2 is basically social media, mobile, everything around user generated content, then Web 3 what is the clear definition of Web 3, and I think if you ask different people, there's going to be different definitions. And I think, from my perspective, it's really about an extension Web 2, which means deeper participation and deeper ownership into the experience itself. And so, if you think about it, in the Web 2.0 world, you know, there has been massive value being created on platforms like Facebook, or Instagram, you know, YouTube. But most of that value was captured by, by Google or by Facebook.
Michael LeBlanc 08:20
As a platform, yeah, -
Ethan Song 8:21
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc8:22
And, and think about even think about all the retailers are, are spending millions of dollars on Facebook every year, they don't own the data, they don't own the customer they have on those platforms. And, you know, it's honestly, it's kind of doubtful what their true ROI, right, to that marketing spin is, I think, for a lot of folks. So, -what’s th-, at this point, I mean, at this point, right? I mean, I talk to retailers all the time, who are (inaudible), listen, you got to be engaged in the platforms, but they're, they're looking at something you did, which is opening stores, to do everything from build relationships to simply acquire customers, right? So, trying to manage that lifetime value equation, when the platform's have a pretty good grip on, on, on, as you said, Web 2 is, is tough, right?
Ethan Song 09:03
It's really tough. And like, you know, I think policies and algorithms are, are changing, obviously, right now. But everyone is struggling with the changes that are happening, you know, with privacy policies, which I, I think (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 09:14
He's got a bit of new ownership in Web 2, you know, -
Ethan Song 09:17
Exactly. I mean, (crossover talk), what changes have to happen, right? So, it's, it's very hard for, you know, brands today to depend on any single channel. And so, you know, the idea of Web 3 is that both the fans as well as the brands would have more ownership in that relationship.
Ethan Song 09:34
And so now, obviously, that's, you know, kind of like very broad terms, and there is going to be many ways through with which I just realized that this actually brings me to sort of like that, you know, item 2 of what I think brands opportunities that brands have, which is really around community engagement and building more loyalty in your fan base.
Ethan Song 09:50
And I think that's a more short-term potential benefit of that you can leverage NFTs to create and that's where actually RareCircles, my new company in this space is focused on which is really helping brands and retailers to build NFT based experiences to deepen engagement with their fans.
Michael LeBlanc 10:09
So, walk me through you created an NFT. And, you know, perhaps before RareCircles you needed some coding or you needed to find out how to do it. I mean, it's not intuitive, you know, retailers sitting in their office, how do I create an NFT, it's not like they can, you know, it's not conventional merchandising.
Michael LeBlanc 10:28
So, it sounds like I've been meandering through your site that RareCircles kind of, is a one and done, you can go there and you will help create an NFT out of something. So, wha-, just walk me through the, the value proposition as you were sitting in front of a, a retailer explaining, here's what this is all about, and why you need to pay attention?
Ethan Song 10:45
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Basically, you know, the idea betwee-, behind our platform is to make it easier and simplified, both the technical and knowledge gap to get started in this space.
Ethan Song 10:57
What we do offer is the right tools and the right content that allows you to create an NFT you know, so the idea of like, creating a NFT, you know, minting into the blockchain, we give you tools to sell the NFT, which means transacting whether you want to transact in cryptocurrencies or if you, you know want to kind of slowly dive into the space and transact and more traditional (inuadible) US dollars. That's the second component.
Ethan Song 11:21
And lastly, which I think is the most important and underrated piece is how do you engage with your users once they own the NFTs what are the benefits of doing so. And so we offer all three components, which we think is an all, all inclusive solution that enables, you know, brands to get started without having to build an entire team, you know, we're early in this space. You know, I think there's a lot of unknowns, I think it's way too early to start hiring people, right for Web 3, when you're still trying to get your a customer acquisition team together. And so, but, but that said, you know, as, as history has shown, the, the companies have brands that are able to take risks, they're able to kind of be early on new platforms tend to succeed.
Michael LeBlanc 12:03
Well, you got, you got to pay attention, it's all a matter of degree, right? It's not like this is a you know, it's not like there's nothing to occupy our minds these days. So, all right, so let's walk through this.
Michael LeBlanc 12:12
So, I've got a logo in front of me, actually, from my barbecue show, which I kind of like and I want to create it as an NFT walk me through. So, I go onto your site, and I pay money to you to do that. So, walk me just through business model? And let's say I don't want to use cryptocurrency, what do you call fiat currency? So, the old school, I just want to create an NFT. And that would be interesting for me to, as you say, dive in. So, walk me through what I would do and, and how the business model works.
Ethan Song 12:39
Yeah, I mean, I think from a business model perspective, it's very simple. It's basically a monthly subscription. And so we don't, we don't take any large kind of upfront fee. We're not an agency. So, you don't have to, like you know, get a custom solution built just for you and have to support that going on. So, actually, it's, it ends up being very affordable to do so. But effectively, you would go on, create your profile, you would basically go through a checklist of items for the NFT and you know, set the right parameters. And if you don't know, you know, obviously, we provide content and support to make those decisions. Once you do that, like basically, -
Michael LeBlanc 13:13
What are some of the key decisions like so I have no idea what I'm doing, so walk me through, what would one or two of the three key decisions to be thinking about even before I visit your platform? What, give me a sense of what those decisions would be?
Ethan Song 13:25
Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing is like, I would definitely, you know, kind of think about what, what are the goals we're trying to achieve with these NFTs, right? Is the idea to monetize meaning, like we want to generate revenue, is the idea to build deeper loyalty and our you know, 1000 true fans, you know, is the idea of selling one or two pieces to raise money for charity. So, I think having a clear goal in mind before getting started would help. So that's the first thing.
Ethan Song 13:47
The second thing is thinking about what is the size of, of the release, meaning like how many, you know, NFTs will I create, but more importantly, how many people I want, you know, to hold this NFT. So, as an example, you know, if I want to create a, a membership program for my, my top influencers, for my brand, that maybe 1000 is the right number, maybe 500 is the right number. So, I think the, the issuance and number matters a lot.
Ethan Song 14:13
And then like the, the third piece, I would say is just figuring out how you're going to engage those users after they have the NFTs. But I, I think to, to make it simple, it's really just a question of what why are we doing this? What are the NFTs? And what is the price and, and the issuance number, and I think that that will get you started.
Michael LeBlanc 14:30
So, I guess it's kind of like a fine art print where you make one of 100, 2 of 100. So, if I wanted to issue 100, and there's only ever going to be 100. And that creates the market, right? In other words, there's not going to be a million of these things out there. You I'm, I'm going to decide I only want to create 100 and each one would be demarcated as one or two or 99 of 100, is that right?
Ethan Song 14:51
That's, that's one way of doing it or you can have like 100 that are all unique and individual. So, I think I think both of these can work but yeah, effectively by setting a total number of NFTs, you're, you're effectively creating the exact the idea of ownership, which means there are, there are only a certain amount. Now that amount can be a very high number, but it's still not infinite.
Michael LeBlanc 15:12
Right and, and that's, I guess, what, what's provocative? Or what's interesting for retailers who, as you know, you know all too well, you know, retailers, we're all looking for something a bit exclusive, some-, something limited, something differentiated. So, is this that opportunity? Maybe it's, you know, th-, that by virtue of the fact that there's only a limited number, whatever that number is, it's created. And that's why retailers you think, should be paying attention to this?
Ethan Song 15:39
I, I mean, I think I think for retailers (inaudible) think they really tell I mean, why don't say retailer, it's a very broad kind of sentence.
Ethan Song 15:45
Sure, sure.
Ethan Song 15:45
But so I think, I think one thing I really believe in, and, and you know, and something that I feel like is going to be really important for, for all, all people that are selling consumer goods in the future is this idea of, you know, building a strong community around your product or your brand.
Ethan Song 16:01
We're seeing more and more than that channel differentiation ultimately, doesn't matter that much, you know, I think everyone's going omni-channel, everyone's going to be in every social media platform. And so, differentiation is, is very difficult.
Ethan Song 16:12
And competition is at the highest level ever, because it's globalized. And it's very easy to start a new brand. And so, it's this idea of like death by 1000, cuts, right? Your competitor is not the store that's in front of you in the mall anymore. It's basically anyone in the world, including someone who's in a basement. And so, if you take that into account, I would say the brands that have the strongest, most dedicated, most engaged communities are going to be the ones that effectively succeed in the future. And that's something I truly believe in.
Ethan Song 16:40
All the other optimizations of like, (inaudible), conversion optimization on our website adds optimization, yes, they matter. But they're not significant to shift, basically, the overall momentum between yourself and another brand that either has a better or worse community. And so, within that perspective, I would say, I would think of NFTs as a way to either build a community, or strengthen the community as a first goal.
Ethan Song 17:05
What retailers have done, that you can think of that have done a successful NFT. So, that wha, - what would you point to any any examples that you'd call it for us to go look at?
Ethan Song 17:05
And the second goal, of course, you know, I think it is appealing for brands and retailers to be able to sell digital goods, because digital goods come with a 95% margin, which as we all know, with all the supply chain issues that we're seeing is not the case for physical goods, right? So, it's definitely attractive, and you're seeing new brands being built. I mean, a lot of the NFT projects, you know, I think, if you even if you look at something like Bored Ape, obviously, which has a tremendous amount of success, whereas a bunch of other ones, you know, people think of it as a prefix (crossover talk), -
Ethan Song 17:44
I mean, I actually think that once again, like the term retailer is not the right term here. I think that like, from a brand perspective, you know, Nike and Adidas have done very successful launches. You know, Adidas has even partnered with Bored Ape, which is a, a crypto native NFT project. So, I think they're thinking in the right way, and they're thinking of as, like a, a, an extension of their brand is an extension of their communities. So, I, I think that we're going to see more and more examples of that.
Ethan Song 18:09
And, you know, we are working with some of the top brands on our side, which, you know, some of those projects will be revealed in the next few months, but what you're going to see is, is that I think that the ones that are at the forefront of culture are at the forefront of like being, being close to their customers are going to be the ones that dabbled for us in this space.
Ethan Song 18:28
You know, a streetwear brand called The Hundreds in the US has done an amazing job at that, you know, that's something anyone on this podcast can look up. But I definitely think we're going to see more and more examples, you know, once again, because I'm going broader with a definition of retailers, I think that you know, food and beverage is going to be a space, there's going to be tremendous innovation in terms of just creating more loyalty to NFTs.
Michael LeBlanc 18:51
Yeah, I guess it's true, I mean, retailers or brand or whatever, but I'm just trying to anchor it in where to go look. So, you've given us a couple of a, couple of great examples. Now, one last thing, you've, you've always had a strong orientation towards responsible environmental responsibility? And is that an essence of this product as well? So, I, I here two schools to that, two sides of that, that the blockchain is a large consumer of electricity and power, and then obviously, you're doing digital goods. So, you know, there's not a lot of waste or production or all that stuff. How do you, how do you think about that? Is this is this front of how you think about this initiative? Or, or is it something that just comes alongside?
Ethan Song 19:33
I mean, I think it's important no matter what an issue we take on and it's definitely something obviously, I've, I've always cared about, you know, in my personal life, and, and obviously, there's criticism, you know, about the blockchain around the energy usage of energy consumption, mainly because, you know, of the way that you know, you have to run basically, the blockchain the later ones of, of this world and you know, there's a lot (inaudibl3in mining and basically, in which you know, people often think about Bitcoin mining in that case, which, you know (inaudible).
Ethan Song 20:00
When you think about that they see like rooms or rooms of servers that are basically, you know, consume energy. And that is actually true that is happening. Now, with that said, I would say that, you know, the, the new technologies that are coming, you know, especially with Ethereum 2.0, and even Solana, or polygon and I'm now throwing like names at (inaudible) people on this call (inaudible) podcast, don't know, but (crossover talk), like a lot of companies right now are tackling this issue and I think, -
Michael LeBlanc 20:24
There is better coming is what you're saying there's, there's better (crossover talk), -
Ethan Song 20:27
and it's coming very quickly, I would say probably in the next 12 to 18 months. And I, I think so I think that energy consumption issue in blockchain is real, but to a certain extent, is much easier to solve than physical infrastructure, then, you know, supply global. supply chain, you know, airfreight or, you know, physical locations, I think that's, that's a much more difficult equation to solve.
Ethan Song 20:48
But ultimately, you know, I, I, I do think that we're going to see more digital consumption, I do think that we're going to see also more higher quality consumption, meaning, you know, you're really going to see the world move into two directions, which is like (inaudible) commodities at a very low cost. And, you know, more premium products where people really care about the brands that they buy from. And we saw that during COVID and I think that just didn't get it more accentuated going forward.
Michael LeBlanc 21:13
Well, that's a nice segue, I can't have you on the microphone with your experience without tapping into your retail wisdom and your brand wisdom, thoughts about, you know, the, the COVID era has it, has retail been changed, from your perspective, some talk about it being accelerating, you know, some of the trends that already were existing accelerated after this couple of three years. I mean, we're not quite out of it yet. You know, what, what's changed? I mean, has consumers changed, has the industry changed, how do you how do you reflect on it?
Ethan Song 21:41
I mean, I think everything's changed. And, and I think things have changed at a deeper level, you know, obviously, you know, if you look at the, the, obviously, the stock market is down right now, but you know, they see the trends towards even eCommerce, so you have a lot of ups and downs, but I don't think those things matter, I think the longer terms, impact of what we've seen the last two or three years will really be impactful. I, I agree with you that from just a pure digital, you know, consumption or eCommerce perspective, you know, we've, we've accelerated by, you know, some people are saying 10 years, but I would say at least five, five, six years, in terms of the general adoption, you know, despite the fact that, you know, some of those, let's call it COVID, stocks are being (inaudible), you know, by, by the public market today, there's no doubt that, you know, eCommerce is going to continue growing, there's no doubt that like work from home is going to continue growing, that like tools enable people to work from anywhere, you know, that that's change completely how a large portion of the population wants to live their lives. And so, -
Michael LeBlanc 22:39
That, that feels to me the biggest one of the biggest changes, I want to see your thoughts, the, the work from home, because there's not like the technology didn't exist pretty COVID in the before time, but it feels that took a cultural change for worker, you know, workplaces to change. Because it wasn't, again, it wasn't about technology, you could always outsource technology, but you would never, I mean, would you have hired in your leadership roles? Would you have hired in the before time someone like a senior leader who was not located in your head office? Is that, was that part of your culture? Or do you think that's changed for you and (crossover talk), -
Ethan Song 23:11
No, we, we wouldn't have done it? I mean, we did it. And we're trying to basically move people around, you know, like, really expensive kind of relocation, you know, type deals which I know (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 23:20
Montreal, right? You were based in Montreal, are you going to be a Vice-President of Marketing, or are you going to be in the office in Montreal, right? And would you do would, if you had to do, I had to do it all over again. But if you were doing the same thing today, (crossover talk), -
Ethan Song 23:31
I mean, it's kind of crazy to say, but five years ago, it was hard to get someone from Toronto and moved to Montreal.
Michael LeBlanc 23:35
Yeah, of course, sure.
Ethan Song 23:37
But now the reality is that you can hide from anywhere. And so, you know, and, and like, even for RareCircles they are our team is, you know, decentralized, remote first and so like, we have people everywhere, and you know, I like I agree with you like earlier, early on, I would have had some concern just around like, okay, like team engagement culture, or like, even just like, you know, work dynamics, but I realized that one, it's the reality of the world. And there's tremendous benefits, I think, for both what a company can do, but also for the lifestyle of the people involved. But I definitely think that that's a that's a big trend, right? It has nothing to do with selling stuff. But it's a big trend, because what it means is that one you can hire from anywhere in the world, but it also means that the best talent in any city won't be limited to the op-, opportunities in that city alone.
Ethan Song 24:21
Right, (crossover talk). Right, so I think that's a big shift, -
Michael LeBlanc 24:23
and that was a challenge for you. I know that was a cha-, it's a challenge for a lot of Montreal brands, you know, or Toronto brands or whatever, Vancouver brands, because, you know, you've got to broach beyond that addressable market, right? Now how are you building team though, amongst, amongst RareCircles, do you get people together? Do you fly them all in like you still need to build some kind of adhesion, some kind of cohesion to your culture, right to, to move your, your vision forward, no?
Ethan Song 24:49
I think you need to have (inaudible), it's not a simple answer. And I think all of us are going to find out in the next few years where the challenges come with, I think you need you need to have a strong well-defined culture, I think you need to have like, clear processes of like, when are the meetings happening? How should people communicate with each other?
Ethan Song 25:06
So, that, that matters a lot and you invest time in that. I do think that, you know, getting people together like once or twice or three or four times a year, I think makes sense. So, this idea of like Hubs, which I know Shopify is doing it as well, I think, I think that makes sense to me.
Ethan Song 25:20
But ultimately, you know, on the other hand, I think accountability, to me is the most important thing, because you're not there, you don't see people work. But with that said, you want to hire people that are highly accountable, and will effectively get the job done, regardless of what you do. And so that to me, once again, is the most important piece, and I do think that for a lot of companies out there, it will be a challenge. And it will be a challenge, not just to hire, but to even retain. Because, you know, the best companies in the world with the capital, you know, that they have at their disposition is coming for your best talent. And it's got to be something that I would be worried about now, just to finalize the kind of where I, where I see, you know, commerce going.
Ethan Song 25:58
The (inaudible) trend, obviously, you know, is that omni-channel, you know, it's not even like it's not buzzword anymore. Everyone needs to be omni-channel, everyone needs to be global, (crossover talk), it's table stakes take, right? So, that how do you manage the complexity of such business? You know, within physical goods? How do you think about, you know, your, your store, basically, even, you know, network? How do you think about your distribution network? I think there's going to be technology challenges and new strategy challenges. But in the end, as I said before, I think investing in your community and your community is all the stakeholders within you know, your company or your brand, I think that's going to be the, the single most important thing to invest in.
Michael LeBlanc 26:36
the differentiator, right? If we if we say table stakes versus differentiators. That's great advice. Now, speaking of advice, last question two starts, one-stop advice for the listeners as they look forward, knowing what you know, with your experience all the new ventures that you've been looking at two things they should start doing. And one thing they should stop doing.
Ethan Song 26:56
I think two things they start doing, is one, is focus on their best customers, and, and I double down on how to recognize who those customers are, and double down on them. And I guess that links to, you know, the what not to do is to try to go too broad and try to you think that everyone should be a customer, I think I think that's, that's, you know, not going to be a winning strategy going forward.
Ethan Song 27:15
The second piece is to take more risk that the speed is the speed of the world is moving so fast. Now, obviously, we've seen that during COVID, that this idea of like studying something for a year or two and then implementing for another year or two, it's too slow, and, and you're likely going to fall behind the risk of not moving fast, is much higher than the risk of moving faster. And so, everyone needs to take more risk. And you need to build your company so that you can absorb failure. And so yeah, folks, so basically focusing on your best customer and take more risk and don't go too broad.
Michael LeBlanc 27:44
And be confident, I guess if, if I unpack that a little bit be confident that just because it's not perfect. I know in the in the tech world, it's you know, minimum viable product kind of thing. But is that is that a key too, right for, for business people it's like don't get hung up on perfection. Just put it out there. Do you think consumers are, are changing in that they accept flaws more now? Or are they? I mean, it's a real paradox, right? On the one hand, consumers are savage, right? There's they're savvy, and they, they just, they just hate any imperfection. On the other hand, you want to get stuff out in the market, even though it's not perfect. Like, you know, it feels like we're at this kind of pivot point where you're trying to do both things, you have to keep up the pace of change, but at the same time, you know, don't disappoint your customers and their expectations are going up, not down like it's a real challenge, right?
Ethan Song 28:31
Yeah, I, I think it's a real challenge. But that's the reason why, you know, my kind of third piece of advice is to figure out what you want to be the best at and stick to that. And what I mean by that is, if you're more focused on one area, one customer or one specific set of values, and then you become the most mission driven company around that, then you can take a lot of risk against that, because you're known for that. If you spread yourself too thin, and all sudden, you're speaking about all different kinds of social issues, things that you don't understand, things that you've never contributed in the past, then absolutely, you are going to get customer backlash, and you're going to hear about it very, very quickly.
Michael LeBlanc 29:05
Well, all right, well, this is a great, where do folks go to learn more about RareCircles or get in touch with you or are you a LinkedIn guy talk about that a bit.
Ethan Song 29:13
Yeah, if you want to get in touch, I would say Twitter's probably the easiest Ethan Song on Twitter, if not, I mea RareCircles.com is where you can learn more about the NFT business?
Michael LeBlanc 29:22
Well, Ethan it's such a treat to chat with you as always, interesting and unexpected and anticipating great things ahead. So, congratulations on your, on your success, and I wish you much continued success. With everything you're working on. We'll be watching.
Ethan Song 29:38
Yeah, thank you very much.
Michael LeBlanc 29:39
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure and click and subscribe on your favorite podcast platforms so new episodes will land automatically, twice a week. And check out my other retail industry media properties, the Remarkable Retail podcast, Conversation with CommerceNext podcast, and The Food Professor podcast with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my all new, YouTube barbecue show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week.
I'm your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. Leblanc & Company and Maven Media. And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co.
Have a safe week everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
brands, blockchain, retailers, create, people, inaudible, retail, platform, Metaverse, crossover, customer, changed, podcast, world, web, space, technology, build, Ethan, Montreal