In light of the pandemic, author and food reporter Corey Mintz has written a compelling look into the restaurant and foodservice industry, illuminating a path to a better, safer, happier meal. Today on The Voice of Retail, I get to pick Corey’s brain about the future of food retail, how and in what ways we can expect the grocery industry to change alongside the restaurant industry and, of course, all about his new book “The Next Supper: The End of Restaurants as We Knew Them and What Comes After.”
Welcome to the The Voice of Retail , I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
In light of the pandemic, author and food reporter Corey Mintz has written a compelling look into the restaurant and foodservice industry, illuminating a path to a better, safer, happier meal.
Today on The Voice of Retail, I get to pick Corey’s brain about the future of food retail, how and in what ways we can expect the grocery industry to change alongside the restaurant industry and, of course, all about his new book “The Next Supper: The End of Restaurants as We Knew Them and What Comes After.”
Corey shares his research and insights base on decades both on the front lines and reporting around the industry- offering key tips for grocers who find themselves navigating a changing food landscape at the intersection of consumers, restaurants and everywhere in between.
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven’t already, be sure and click subscribe on your favourite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week, and check out my other retail industry media properties; the Remarkable Retail podcast, the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and the Food Professor podcast. Last but not least, if you are into Barbeque, check out my all new YouTube barbecue show, Last Request Barbeque, with new episodes each and every week!
I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company & Maven Media, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co! Have a safe week everyone!
Get the Book
https://www.anrdoezrs.net/click-8946794-11556907?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.chapters.indigo.ca%2Fen-ca%2Fbooks%2Fthe-next-supper-the-end%2F9781541758407-item.html%3Fikwid%3Dcorey%2Bmintz%26ikwsec%3DHome%26ikwidx%3D0%23algoliaQueryId%3Dda80d92a8beb492bc1277b6ae1163b6e
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated on thought leadership panels worldwide. Michael was recently added to ReThink Retail’s prestigious Top 100 Global Retail Influencers list for 2021.
Michael is also the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts, including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus the Remarkable Retail with author Steve Dennis, Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Most recently, Michael launched Conversations with CommerceNext, a podcast focussed on retail eCommerce, digital marketing and retail careers - all available on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music and all major podcast platforms. Michael is also the producer and host of the “Last Request Barbeque” channel on YouTube where he cooks meals to die for and influencer riches.
Michael LeBlanc 00:04
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
In light of the pandemic, author and food reporter Corey Mintz has written a compelling look into the restaurant and foodservice industry, illuminating a path to a better, safer and happier meal. Today on The Voice of Retail, I get to pick Corey's brain about the future of food, retail, how and in what ways we can expect the grocery industry to change alongside the restaurant industry and, of course, all about his new book, ‘The Next Supper: The End of Restaurants as We Knew Them’.
Corey shares his research and insights based on decades, both on the frontlines and reporting around the industry, offering key tips for grocers who find themselves navigating a changing food landscape at the intersection of consumers, restaurants and everything in between.
Corey Mintz 00:51
It's absolutely COVID, I mean, pre-COVID, while I was starting to write the book, and then as COVID changed the nature of what I was writing about it was, it was my ambition just to get those conversations into the public sphere. But they've happened, you know, they've happened because of the situation. Our language has changed even in a short amount of time.
Michael LeBlanc 01:13
Let's listen in now.
Well, Corey, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast, how are you doing this morning?
Corey Mintz 01:19
I am doing terrific this morning, now that I took care of certain bathroom issues.
Michael LeBlanc 01:24
We were talking about the wonders of cleaning products that you discover that can take home, take care of household duties. So, it's a great way to start your morning and, and this is the second time, within so many weeks, we've had the opportunity to speak you and I had a great conversation with Sylvain, on The Food Professor podcast. And at the very end of that discussion, I said, hey, I want to talk to you about chapter seven of the book, which was all about the grocer in-. And so, I thought it was good for, for The Voice of Retail audience. So, thank you for generously accepting my offer to be on the podcast.
Corey Mintz 01:53
Thank you for asking me because honestly, I've done I would say 20 to 30 interviews in the last couple of months since the book came out. And I've had no questions about chapter seven. Maybe because people haven't read past the first couple. But I did. I mean, I did strategically organize the book, -
Michael LeBlanc 02:13
Yeah.
Corey Mintz 02:13
For what I thought was sort of going to be the most contemporary parts of the conversation, which is you know, starting off with the virtual restaurant and the disruption of the third-party delivery companies. But I think the grocery stores in food retail is, it's impossible to talk about restaurants and not at least get into supermarkets to some degree. And as someone who you know, got married in a grocery store, I'm, I'm compelled, I like talking about it.
Michael LeBlanc 02:40
I'll be the first hopefully, and we'll see how that goes. But and we'll talk about the book. But let's start at the beginning. Tell the listeners who may know the name, but may not know about your background a little bit about yourself and, and what you do today?
Corey Mintz 02:55
Sure, I started off as a cook and went to cooking school. And I worked for a number of years in restaurant kitchens, and just doing a variety of, of cooking jobs, from quick service to high end, to a spa, to dinner theater before you know, just realizing that this was not the career for me, and I made a switch to writing and somehow managed to be successful in that transitioning to being the very quickly to the restaurant critic for the Toronto Star.
I spent years as a food columnist and about five or six years ago, made a slight turn to focus more on some of the problems in the food industry, most specifically labor within the restaurant industry. And all of those articles and essays and all those little stories and projects kind of built up to the point where I couldn't keep writing these little snippets of them, and they had to have a larger canvas because I felt as every conspiracy theory must that all these issues are connected. And, and so I wrote a book called ‘The Next Supper: The End of Restaurants as We Knew Them, and What Comes After’.
Michael LeBlanc 04:11
Not what comes next which I which I'm just, I'm thinking what kind of practice (crossover talk) a few times this morning.
Corey Mintz 04:16
Well, the title of the book well, the original title of the book was, ‘The Further Adventures of Harry Potter’ by JK Rowling who wrote the other books featuring Harry Potter. And the lawyer told me we're going to have problems with that so, -
Michael LeBlanc 04:30
(crossover talk). You know in, in your book and thanks for bringing up the book because I really want to get and unpack it for the audience who mostly would be retailer grocery, but of course it's a very intimate connection between restaurants and, and restaurants and retail. I mean they're very much connected at the hip in many ways notwithstanding grocery, which we'll get to in more detail.
But I loved your story, your backstory about how when you went, I think was at, it was at the Toronto Star, one of the papers and they didn't want you to be called the food critic, you were a journalist. Everyone here is a journalist and, and that the idea was for you to write and describe and you, you certainly had a flair for it. I mean, I, I, as I've said to you before I, I put your book in the same category, in a complementary way, as Anthony Bourdain’s, ’Kitchen Confidential’, because you've got that background that hands on, I've been in the kitchen. And you speak to issues, more fulsomely around the, you know, as you as you often talk about, you know, the structure of the industry, the (inaudible) and, and the more expensive the restaurant, sometimes unfortunately, the less they're paying.
So, congratulations I mean it's a great accomplishment and it's a great book. For the listeners, and yes, there's a question in here somewhere. For the listeners, take us through the book.
Corey Mintz 05:47
I don’t mean to interrupt you but as long as you're complimenting me, I'm not going to cut you off.
Michael LeBlanc 05:51
Yeah, don't stop me now. For the listeners, take us through the book, because it's, it's as you say, it's pulled together in a series of very specific chapters and ways but, you know, give us an overall perspective on, on the book itself.
Corey Mintz 06:04
It would be great if right now I just started playing the audio book, which I narrated and then walked away from my computer for the next eight hours and you were unable to cut me off. But I, I could be more succinct to that. Let's pretend we're in an elevator, you've just pressed, you know, the fifth floor. As I said, I think there's a variety of, of problems in the restaurant industry. Many of them pre-pandemic. We're, we're getting worse and we're not really subject to public scrutiny. And I sought to sort of put them all together in one place with the hopes that I could get people to sort of; A) believe that these were things and, B) care enough to want to make a difference. To be more ethical diners. Which was kind of the, the path that I was pursuing, saying, the more I know about the restaurant industry, the harder it is to sort of dine out and look the other way. What are some solutions to this?
So, I sought out those answers and as I did, so I, I began to separate to avoid the sort of, what about-ism critiques that you get when you write about restaurants to say, let's look at the sort of urban chef driven restaurants separate from the full-service chain restaurant. The QSR model, the family run, immigrant, restaurant, and so on. And as we do so, use those separate themes, or chapters, or genres to get into bigger issues, like tipping, or gentrification, or sustainability initiatives from corporate chains, or the you know, the, the, the efficacy of the, the third-party delivery system, whether it's a scam or not to sort of pull apart all those issues to say, if we talk about all of these things at once, I'm going to sound like a crazy person, so let's parse them out then.
Michael LeBlanc 07:49
Yeah, you did a nice job of, of breaking the chapters up. And, and you mentioned tipping and you mentioned urban restaurants say off mic, you and I were talking about Carl Heinrich's restaurant, at Richmond Station, and we've had him on the podcast on The Food Professor. And he talked about, you know, he has the hospitality included and, and interestingly, he doesn't mind in fact, likes the delivery service. So, talk about that, you know, that seems to be one of those kinds of issues that talks about a bunch of other issues, you know, what we pay for when we eat? Do we appreciate how, how much hard work and how little some restaurants can make? And is the business model fixable, because ultimately your book is optimistic around the industry. Talk about that a little bit in your, your thoughts today and how you.
Corey Mintz 08:32
Well try to be I mean, from day one, you know, the note from, from my editor was you can't write a book, that's a laundry list of complaints. You have to be constructive and provide some direction for people. And I'm sure you want that direction yourself, which, which I did very much so.
And I knew going into it that based on my experience in and out of the restaurant industry and just as a consumer in general, that there had been a change in conversation in the way we buy our food in the grocery store in terms of caring about where food comes from, in the early started in the early 2000s, about you know about local, about organic, about sustainability and there began to be sort of a segmenting of the market in terms of people who, let's call them ethical consumers, which was a growing segment of, of any market. And yet it hadn't really permeated to the restaurant world. And I felt like it should, and it would and, and the reality is it has, you know.
The example that you that you bring up, the third party delivery companies. And I was writing articles three or four years ago about how their business model is parasitic, and it's not good for restaurants. And four years ago, that was outside the Overton Window. That was a bit of a conspiracy theory. You know, even leading up to the book, my editor said, ‘What's a ghost kitchen? I've never heard of that.’
You know, and by the time the book was published, you know when I'm meeting people dealing when I meet people now in the spring when we were at the playground, you know, my toddler daughters playing and I'm meeting other parents and they go, what do you do? And we're chit chatting and, and I found that people, as I began to explain these things are aware of, oh, yeah, I viewed, they would say, I've, I've heard those, the, the all the delivery companies, they're kind of exploitative, they take a higher percentage in commissions than restaurants make in profits, that, that doesn't sound good. And more and more I hear from people who are ditching these, these companies altogether, at the same time, the, the conversation about how cooks are paid, or tips are divided.
Again, I, I was kind of, I was going up hill three or four years ago in having those conversations. Even just getting people to believe the numbers I was telling them, you know, a cook makes half of what a server makes in a nice restaurant. Or the nicer the restaurant, the less a cook makes. People couldn't believe that and, and today, I'm seeing a much more mainstream. In fact, I'll give you an example, I was speaking with a restaurant owner here last week, and I asked her about, do people ask you about wages or how tips are divided? Because that's something I, I suggest people do. And is it taboo to do that? And she said, ‘It's not at all taboo, I, I welcome that and in fact, I'm finding that people are at least once a week, if not, sometimes once per shift, are coming up to me, not my employees because they could tell I've got owner energy, and asking me how tips are divided’. And, and, and I asked her pre-pandemic, how often did that happen? And she said, ‘Never not once’. So, -
Michael LeBlanc 11:41
Is, is it, is it the COVID, is this the repercussions? So, the implications or whatever it is the acceleration from the COVID era is this, you know, we're now talking in here in early January, and, and unfortunately, restaurants are closed in major provinces is, is has COVID been the accelerant for that conversation? Was it coming anyway? And it just got sped up or did you think there's something new here?
Corey Mintz 12:05
It's absolutely COVID. I mean, pre-COVID while I was starting to write the book, and then as COVID changed the nature of what I was writing about it was, it was my ambition just to get those conversations into the public sphere. But they've happened, you know. They've happened because of the situation. Our language has changed. Even in a short amount of time look at you know, back in April or May, I was still regularly seeing legacy media publications using phrases, using the phrase ‘labor shortage’ and parroting the, the, the franchise operator talking points that, ‘nobody wants to work anymore’, ‘people are lazy’, ‘government handouts have, have dis-incentivized my loyal workforce’. To you know, today I see more and more of the term, "The Great Resignation", which I think is a nice, very colorful little title. But I see that far more than I do since the labor shortage. I don't see the blaming of workers anymore. I think that conversation kind of went around, it went a few rounds, and it got knocked out, you know, the, the sort of I think the insulting nature of blaming poor working people for not wanting to work for poverty wages, or under horrific conditions kind of moved away.
And, and, and at the same time, I'm not sure this one has shifted yet, but I've seen a move to push people to stop using Amazon's what do they call it fulfillme-, fulfillment center language for what we all know to be a warehouse. You know, there's been, I think, those little shifts in, in conversation in a way that I think we can see while behind the scenes, you know, the answer to that question, how do you divide tips? Five years ago, the answer was always at the front of house kickbacks, kicks back about 5% to the back of house, and, and the, and the answer at least from her was 70-30. And I'm also hearing from people 60-40 some cases 50-50. This isn't really out, this isn't super public in a way that's, that's well known. And I'm, I'm hoping I can do some more, some more database research that's not just anecdotal about that. But, five years ago, nobody would have told me even, even 70-30 that they were splitting with the back of house. So, things are shifting and they're entirely due to the massive unpleasant disruption of the pandemic.
Michael LeBlanc 14:35
I was wondering if you think during this time, (inaudible) going into three years I mean, do consumers in general, do you think, I think one of three things could happen and maybe all three I want to get your perspective: 1 is they appreciate food even more now than they did before because they actually have to make it and they're like, ‘Oh my God, that's this is hard work’. 2 is, ‘I'm just so sick of making my own food, I'm going to eat out in restaurants that rest of my life’. And 3 is, does it push restaurants higher? In other words, well like, ‘I got pretty good at this cooking thing’, maybe they did, maybe they didn't and I'm, my standards for what restaurants and how restaurants serve me has gone up. What out of those three things, do you think it's a mix? Or do you have any perspective on that?
Corey Mintz 15:18
You know, I have anecdotal evidence, which is contradictory. I mean, from, from the source, the restauranteurs that I regularly speak to, this is already a self-selected group of like people who care about having a better industry. So, it's not like I'm regularly talking to the CEO of Darden, at the risk of singling something out, which is the parent company, of course of, of the Olive Garden. But, when I talk to restauranteurs, who run you know, smaller restaurants in cities, generally, they say, you know, we're kept alive by our (inaudible), but also by having customers who value us as a part of our lives, who and who let it be known. Whether it's through money, you know, through, through the money that they spend, through exorbitant in tips, or through communicating differently, hey, you know, when they, when they call in the order, saying, ‘You're really important that like, please stick around, what else can I do, we'd love coming to your shop’, or, the reason I called in this order is because I want you to not have to pay the commission to Uber’.
And, and they tell stories of like, sort of long term, the kind of customers you want regulars being understanding, right. For why you're busy, or why, or, or sorry, or why something is slower, why you don't have anything. At the same time, I get these press releases from sort of marketing, consulting, more well funded food hospitality organizations saying, you know, ‘We're looking at the trends and what we're seeing is the demand is for even higher levels of service and perfection, and everything has to be the best’. And customers are saying, ‘If I'm going back to restaurants, and everything's going to cost me more, will I better get more for it’. Which is preposterous, everything's going up more because it was under priced before it finally needs to keep pace with the, you know, the actual pace of inflation never minds rising wages, and the rising cost of beef and chicken and all those other things.
So, it depends on who you're talking to, which is a weaselly way of answering any question. But I think it speaks to the type of again, the type of segmenting of the restaurant that we're talking about the big chain place, I think attracts a different type of customer from the small neighborhood place.
Michael LeBlanc 17:38
Fair. You know, I, I opened up my browser this morning, I went on CNBC and there's a, there's a headline there and I almost spit my coffee over my new equipment here because it was so perfect. It's called it the title is, are in this article, "Rapidly rising food prices might give restaurants an edge". And I'm like, how on earth, how does that work? I mean, restaurants as we know and you know, it's a thin margined business, how does, how does rising price. And they go on to say, listen, it's going to cost more food, it's going to cost more to buy food and grocery. This is I guess my segue question when talking about grocery, it's gonna cost more for people to buy food and groceries, so they're going to go to restaurants, like, -
Corey Mintz 18:18
Right.
Michael LeBlanc 18:18
Like (crossover talk) the (inaudible) cost isn't going up I anyway, I just wanted (crossover talk), -
Corey Mintz 18:22
I respect the hot take, but sometimes it's so hot, you didn't have time to put it on a plate and spread butter over it. And in that case, you know I would remind that author of something that a restaurateur told me which is, you know, if, if consumers see the prices rising 5-7% in the supermarket, know that that's because wholesalers know that they can only pass on so much increase in cost to retail customers, but they will pass the rest of it on to restaurant customers. So, if your chicken is going up 5%, the restaurants chicken is going up 50% to account for that. So, no, no, no restaurants are not able to take advantage of rising food prices.
Michael LeBlanc 18:22
Yeah, anyway it just it couldn’t have been timed better for our conversation.
All right, well let’s, let’s talk about, let’s talk about, let’s talk about grocery stores. So, in your, you chapter seven, it’s called which I think is one of the not sure of the term but one of the most unfortunate trend terms I’ve ever heard of grocer-ants.
Corey Mintz 19:09
What don't you like about it?
Michael LeBlanc 19:12
It, it, it's a grocer-ants, grocer-cants, groceries full of ants. I mean, it's one of those bastardization words, anyways.
Corey Mintz 19:31
It didn't say grocer ant instead of grocerant but it's a portmanteau of grocery and restaurant, which we don't say restau-rant.
Michael LeBlanc 19:39
That's true. I do like you know, it is a very descriptive term so I get it.
Corey Mintz 19:44
Do you like it anymore, pronounced as grocer-rant?
Michael LeBlanc 19:47
I do actually. You've, you've turned a bit of a corner for me. It sounds more sophisticated there. (crossover talk) But you, you start your conversation and, and we've talked about the connection between restaurants and, and retail. Now let's talk about a very close connection between restaurants thinking they, and acting, and even in the news this week, there's a, an organization opening up like a shop in shop within Loblaws. So, this is, this is a more than a trend this is something that's, that's happening and is real what's been your reporting on, on restaurants in grocery stores and grocery stores saying, well, listen, I got a lot of people here, I maybe I should up my game more than a roasted chicken and really start, start you know, getting that share of, another unfortunate term, share of stomach so to speak or share appetite.
Corey Mintz 20:34
The grocerant, whether we like the name or not, and I'm, I'm with you, it's a dumb sounding word, nobody likes it. But it was, it was, it was an emerging trend 10 years ago, and it was a huge source of growth within the last five or six years. Before the pandemic, I think something like 5% of supermarket sales were the category of prepared foods. Which means both you know, the prepared meals to go as well as food service within the stores. But, it was growing, it was growing at such an exponential rate that every big food retailer was looking into it, investing into it, considering about what kind of floor space to allocate to it. And, and the premise was essentially twofold: A) it's an amenity that brings people into the store and causes them to choose your store over someone else's, because yours is the one that also has, you know, in addition to everyday low prices, or whatever selection or service that customers like yours is also the place with the brisket sandwich, or the ramen or whatever else the thing is you got, (crossover talk) -
Michael LeBlanc 21:45
The sushi counter or whatever. Yeah, yeah.
Corey Mintz 21:46
The sushi counter. I had, yeah, I had, I had a bowl of ramen at a store called Lucky's in, in Florida, which turned out to be two days before they closed the entire store and, and the entire chain was pretty much folded after Kroger divested themselves. (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 22:06
Despite that, despite their name, which I guess there's another lesson to be learned.
Corey Mintz 22:09
They should have just put it new in and above the side outside the store. The, so there's, there's two aspects to it. So, 1 is bringing customers in keeping them there, there longer, you know, like the casino mentality, the longer they stay, the longer they spend, the bigger the basket size, right? And the other is, it's an actual, profitable revenue generator. If you're doing it, right. So this was on the rise dot, dot, dot, dot, da, -
Michael LeBlanc 22:38
Yeah.
Corey Mintz 22:38
Up until March of 2020. And then obviously, things went haywire in groceries in a very different way, -
Michael LeBlanc 22:47
Yeah.
Corey Mintz 22:47
Then for restaurants. But you know, one of let's just focus on the one effect. At least speaking with, with a grocery expert at the time, the analysis was, well, the grocerant is dead for the foreseeable future, at least for the moment, as of that moment, April in 2020. Obviously, nobody's sitting down to eat in a grocery store, whether you legally can in your jurisdiction or not, you don't want to and this is not a thing that's bringing in, it is not a thing that's attracting customers there.
I mean, the thing that I've found looking into this book, as, as I began writing that pre-pandemic, and as it sort of adapted over the course of the year, which also included us, you know leading downtown in my personal connection with all my food retailers, to Winnipeg, where I didn't know people, I had to find new places to shop for food, I had to learn new ways to do all these things. The idea there, there are different types of consumers and you know, when you when you talk to the marketing people that say, well, there's, there's, you know, there's a 1000 different types of consumers, but I feel like it kind of they, they do kind of drop into one of three bags, which is people who value price, convenience, or let's call it quality, -
Michael LeBlanc 22:47
Yeah.
Corey Mintz 22:48
For lack of a better term, which, of course, segments us by socio-economics as people who can or can't afford those things. But for the time being, it just wasn't an ish-, it wasn't an option like, whether you like to go in and chat up and have a social experience and get to know someone and be able to say, ‘Hey Linda’, ‘Hey Steve’, you know, ‘How's the lettuce today?’ It's with the mask on you can't really do that. It's not, certainly as a new person or in a new town, you cannot idle up to people and get to know them in that way.
Michael LeBlanc 24:43
Yeah. And, and if you cast your mind forward, you know, I was hoping that we'd be cast already cast our mind forward to the end of or closer to the end of the pandemic than we are today. But let's say this too shall pass and this year hopefully. Do you think there's a, a you think it's a successful strategy for grocers to kind of up, continue to up that game, kind of like what I'm reading Loblaws doing. There's a, you know, like a shop in shop, dedicated restaurant in the store. Restoration Hardware, RH does a wonderful job putting restaurants in, and it's a big thing. Do you think that's viable for both the industry as a restauranteur? And also, as a, as a grocer? Do you, do you like that, if you know, like, I waved a wand and gave you a million dollars to open a restaurant, which open one in a grocery store, like talk about that, then?
Corey Mintz 24:49
Well, I mean, obviously, I would do whatever I could, I would talk to my lawyer and figure out how I could get that money and not open a restaurant. But if you were, if I was legally, contractually, -
Michael LeBlanc 25:44
I think that would be, I think that would be a fraudulent transaction with my magic wand, but okay. (crossover talk)
Corey Mintz 25:50
Whatever you do, don't make me open a restaurant.
But, but I, but addressing the heart of the question, you know, is this a viable future? I think the first part, the provision you provided, which was, you know, let's say that this too shall pass. In a future which theoretically, one can resume dine-in experiences on a sustained level, which already is, is dubious, then yeah, I think it's very viable. I think it was showing its, its growth, pre-pandemic. And I, I mean, I can speak to it works for me.
I mean, I moving here, we, you know, I used to know, we lived in Kensington Market, right? So, I lived, I could walk outside our home and I knew on a first name basis, my butcher, and my baker, and my grocer, and my cheese-monger and the dry goods store, and they knew me, and I could shop for food, pretty much the way people shop for food at the turn of the 20th century. As anachronistic as that was, it was part of one of the joys of my life. I can't do that here, we live in a driving culture, not a walking or cycling culture. But I have been able to find you know, a source of pork, a local farm that, that naturally raises pork, so I get it from them. And a good place for bread and a bunch of things.
But ultimately, on a weekly basis, we probably place a click and collect order with, with one of the major retailers. But at the same time, you know, one of the first things I had to do here was find all the Asian supermarkets. And one of them, also coincidentally called Lucky's, no affiliation with the American chain, they have a lunch counter in their place. And some point mid-pandemic, a Filipino actually, my favorite Filipino restaurant in the city coincidentally, called Mar's Sisig, moved into them and started operation and just for takeout because there's no possibility of sitting down right now. I wouldn't want to sit down but it's, it's an amenity and factors into my thinking sometime, and it works on me the way it's supposed to work. Which is, well if I need X, Y, Z, and if that includes like, you know, baby bok choy, or certain ingredients that I know I'm I should be getting from the Asian place. And then I also go well, if I do it on Thursday, I'll have time to go by and get a plate of sisig or kare-kare. Then at the same time, you know what I might as well get my milk, my eggs, my diapers, whatever, whatever it is from Lucky's. And that's the whole strategy of it, right? So, it works on me.
The difference is, we're talking about the difference between a regional and an international player. And I remember asking, I was speaking with a grocery expert, and I forget his name right now. But I was asking if, if the chains are partnering with restaurants, because I haven't really seen that. You know, the names of recognizable restaurants within grocery stores. And his observation it was there's no incentive. You know, we had started to see more and more the grocery stores, the big supermarkets start to open their own branded restaurants within the, within the supermarket. And while obviously would be a big draw, if you if you had partnered with Momofuku and had a Momofuku shop that's going to bring in customers but you don't get to keep the revenue.
Michael LeBlanc 29:25
Let's, let's end our conversation talking about grocery stores you've talked about, you talked about in the book your, your, your shopping in Kensington Market and your love of, of local and getting to know the people you, you buy from. I think there's probably some, some heritage there from you, yours, your life as a chef where I imagined in my dreams that chefs go out at four o'clock in the morning and handpick all their own food. That's the way I see it on television anyway. But when I think about that, what, when I think about the question is what do you like in a grocery store? Like do you see yourself in the future and more importantly, beyond yourself, do you see a role for the local small grocer and the larger grocery? Like, like, do you already described kind of a hybrided shopping where you shop large, small. Do you think there's a good future for smaller format grocery stores where get to know the butcher, and he knows the cuts and all that stuff? Or is, is it all going to get carried away by volume? Where do you, d you think there's a fit there?
Corey Mintz 30:25
Yeah, I've defi-, I'm not enough of an economist or a retail expert. In fact, I'm not either of those things. But from the people I speak to, in my personal experience, I think there's a market where you make it. And if you can find a neighborhood where there's or, or, or a geographical region, where there's enough people, with enough income, who value the product and service that you're offering, then you can open that naturally raised butcher shop, where everything is, you know, 30-100%, more expensive than at the large chain supermarket.
You know the future of groceries for me is going to continue to be to find and foster personal relationships with people producing or distributing food and, and promoting those things, connecting other people with them, because that's important my life. For the bulk of the population, people go to the supermarket, you know, once or twice a week, and they get everything at one store. And that wasn't really the way I shopped until we moved here. And when I did do it for the first time, much like going to a drive thru for fast food with the first time when I recently bought my first car, I went, ‘Oh, wow, this is really convenient’.
Michael LeBlanc 31:38
Is it? This is why this works, I get that now.
Corey Mintz 31:41
Yeah, I you know, I don't have to get out my wallet 10 times and have 8. I'm not walking around Kensington and carrying six bags and I can put it on the trunk of my car. I get it, the convenience of modern life is a big lure. But I think depending on the region you are in, and if, and if you can attract the clientele, there's always a market. You know, I can tell you that in the neighborhood I'm, I'm in right now, I'm astounded. It's a relatively it's like a strongly middle class neighborhood that shocks me that there isn't a sort of sustainable fishmonger. You know with the, the, the, there's, commercial space available real nearby. I know that, you know, commercial rents in the city go from like 18 to almost $30 an hour, which is, you know, nothing compared with Toronto. And yet, I don't see somebody doing that. I think there's a market for it based on the people that I speak to.
But in general, you know, the trend of everything is going big consolidation. But I think down the line, I thin-, the unavoidable reality is that it was always, or not always, it was for a generation of big hard push to transition grocery consumers to online ordering. And it, it just wasn't budging to the same degree that it was in so many other retail areas, right? Like, like, clothing, or, or -
Michael LeBlanc 33:07
Yeah, it's still small. I mean, it's e-, e-, even after the great acceleration, it's still, you know, 5%, 8% I mean, 90, you do the reverse math and the vast, vast amount of groceries are bought, and the way our parents bought them. That's great conversation.
Thanks so much, again, for joining me on the on the podcast. Where can people get in touch or at least follow what you're writing today or get the book. I guess the book is at all the major it's out now. So, at, at all the major bookstores but where can people follow to see what you're thinking on any given day?
Corey Mintz 33:37
The book is available anywhere you would buy books. I'm at coreymintz.ca. And that's C-O-R-E-Y, M-I-N-T-Zand the same at Twitter and Instagram, I usually post my work there.
Michael LeBlanc 33:52
Fantastic. Well, Cory, thanks again for joining me. It's a real treat. I highly recommend the book. It's a great read, whether you're whether you eat food or not. Whether you're leave restaurants, you've done a great job and it's great book and, (crossover talk) -
Corey Mintz 34:04
Whether you eat food or not, I really hoping to tap that market of people who don't consume edible matter. Thank you. Well, this was a pleasure.
Michael LeBlanc 34:13
Yeah, my pleasure as well. Thanks again for joining me and, and have a great rest of your day.
Corey Mintz 34:18
You too.
Michael LeBlanc 34:19
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure and click and subscribe on your favorite podcast platforms so a new episode will land automatically twice a week. And check out my other retail industry media properties The Remarkable Retail podcast, Conversations with CommerceNext podcast and The Food Professor podcast with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois.
Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my all-new YouTube barbecue show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week. I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company and Maven Media. And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co.
Have a safe week everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
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