The COVID era has put retail transformation under the spotlights, and no one better to tap Into their experience and insights on the road left behind and the path ahead then Retail Transformation Specialist and fellow Top 100 Global Retail Influencer, Oliver Banks, Oliver and I talk about keeping pace with the rate of change in retail. From having fun by fostering an “experimental edge” to reaffirming your company’s mission, Oliver offers a host of ways that retailers can deliver positive transformation in rapidly changing times.
Welcome to the The Voice of Retail , I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
The COVID era has put retail transformation under the spotlights, and no one better to tap Into their experience and insights on the road left behind and the path ahead then Retail Transformation Specialist and fellow Top 100 Global Retail Influencer, Oliver Banks, Oliver and I talk about keeping pace with the rate of change in retail. From having fun by fostering an “experimental edge” to reaffirming your company’s mission, Oliver offers a host of ways that retailers can deliver positive transformation in rapidly changing times.
Be sure and tune into Oliver's The Retail Transformation Show podcast!
Thanks for tuning into today’s episode of The Voice of Retail. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss out on the latest episodes, industry news, and insights. If you enjoyed this episode please consider leaving a rating and review, as it really helps us grow so that we can continue getting amazing guests on the show.
I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co!
Until next time, stay safe and have a great week!
Michael LeBlanc
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
The COVID era has put retail transformation under the spotlight, and no one better to tap into their experience and insights on the road left behind and the path ahead than retail transformation specialist and fellow Top 100 Global Influencer, Oliver Banks. Oliver and I talk about keeping pace with the rate of change in retail. From having fun by fostering an experimental edge to reaffirming your company's mission. Oliver offers a host of ways that retailers can deliver positive transformation in today's rapidly changing times.
Oliver Banks
And that's probably the biggest challenge with regard to transformation going forward, is do we revert back to the slow way of doing things? Or, do we keep some of the pace and some of the experimental nature that we we learned during the pandemic? That's going to be a certainly an interesting challenge. And I think the best companies who, by the way, were already pretty good at change, let's be honest, will continue to beat that drum and continue to evolve their operations, their operating model and their business for sure.
Michael LeBlanc
Let's listen in now.
Oliver, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. How are you doing?
Oliver Banks
Michael, I'm doing really well. Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here with you today.
Michael LeBlanc
Well, you and I are brought together so to speak in this big universe of podcasting and business in retail by Steve Dennis. You,
Oliver Banks
Yes,
Michael LeBlanc
We're hosting, I believe the first launch of the original book, "Remarkable Retail". That's where I came to know you. And, now I listen to your podcast and, and it's such a treat to have you join me on mine. I'm, I'm so keen to hear more about what you do and kind of dive in. But let's, let's start at the beginning. Tell us about yourself and personal professional journey and the work you do and the podcast you host.
Oliver Banks
Yeah, it's absolutely, it's been great getting to know you over the past year and of course being together on Steve's second book launches as well, right? So, I am based in the UK, and I'm a retail transformation specialist. So, I work with retailers to help them change and evolve their operations and their operating models. I host The Retail Transformation Show podcast, and also live virtual events, as well, Retail Transformation Live.
Michael LeBlanc
And when we talk about transformation, unpack that a little bit for me. So, you know, you, you advice and a podcast about it but where do you start that journey of transformation? Is this a digital transformation? Is this cultural? Is it all of the above?
Oliver Banks
Yeah, well, I've got a bit of a, an allergic reaction that happens when someone says digital transformation to be honest. Because, all transformation tends to be digital now.We live in a digital world. There is very little that happens that doesn't involve some form of digital system or integration, whatever, whatever it is to be honest. And equally, if you are doing a, you know, a new system upgrade, a true digital transformation today, it's very likely that it's not just the digital aspects that are involved. But, I think calling it a digital transformation can sort of put the blinkers on. And, it can get people to think solely about the technology rather than actually what else is happening in the business as we change, as we evolve. So, that's I, you know, let's not use the term digital transformation, please.
Michael LeBlanc
Right on, right on.
Oliver Banks
I kind of view transformation as two, two broad things. And it's quite an overused word, arguably. So, when trying, we're trying to overuse it myself. But, there's basically a fundamental level and an incremental level. And fundamental is, as it suggests, it's a true transformation that is wiping the slate clean, or maybe it's building something completely afresh. Whereas, an incremental transformation is more an optimization, simplification and improvement that absolutely is still valid. And, certainly when you start to get multiple incremental changes building up, they can have a truly transformative effect on mass.
Michael LeBlanc
So, let's I want to get back to the whole state of transformation if I can in the COVID era. But, I do also want to take advantage of your location and, in, in the UK and, and with proximity to Europe. Tell us a little bit about the state of retail in, in England and how you see it across Europe. It seems to be, looking from the outside in, with a bit of envy, I must say from Canada, you're ahead of us in terms of the vaccination program, things are starting to open up. We all still have to deal with variants, but, but how is retail responding to tough, tough times? Give us a bit of the state of retail today.
Oliver Banks
Yeah, so in terms of emerging from COVID, the UK is actually doing pretty well I think. We've got an advanced vaccine program that is, is going well, so far. And, I think that's building the confidence. Our stores are reopened now. Our pubs and restaurants have just reopened as well. There are still limits, and obviously masks are still required as well. But, what we're seeing is footfall is slowly returning to physical retail. Workplaces are slowly beginning to open. Physical meetings between people are slowly starting to happen. But, I use that word slowly, very intentionally there because I don't think it's the bounce back that perhaps we all originally hoped for. We saw some big, big bounces as things initially started to open, but I think it will be a gradual return to normality, if you really want to use that word.
Michael LeBlanc
Now, do you think what, what drives that gradual return, I mean, it's interesting, because we saw, here where I am in Toronto, we had a period in mid-February, where the government kind of, things simmer down a little bit, and the government pulled the, pulled back on the limitations, the malls opened up, literally for two weeks. And then we had to slam it shut. We got caught with variants, and it got really bad, we're still shut down. Essential retail still shut down here. But, the malls literally had to close they had so many people. Like people rushed back to the store. But I, I feel like it's a short-term reaction to what's missing in our life, but I'm not sure that there's a, you know, that, that you can sustain that. How, you, you talked about a gradual return, is it, is it a gradual return, because people are just cautious, to re-engage in society again, because of the virus? Or because they've changed the way they shop, or the way they run their lives?
Oliver Banks
I think all of the above, first and foremost, we also saw, you know, opening day, you know, long queues, etc. But, that's almost the hype and the excitement of actually getting out of your house and going to do something different, perhaps seeing, seeing your friends, etc. I think, we of course, have got to take into account the changing consumer habits, everything from working from home. I can't see that going back fully to where we were. Obviously, the rise of e commerce. Again, I can't see that fully going back to where it was. So, I think there is this step change that has happened in the world of consumers lives that will, that will never come back. I, I suspect there's a huge element of building confidence, you know. The vaccine will, will help build confidence. There's going to be a lot of awkwardness as well. I'm, I'm interested to see the first live face to face event and see the awkwardness between different people all that do I get too close to or not? So yes, it's,
Michael LeBlanc
Do I shake hands? Do I not?
Oliver Banks
You want to, how do you want to?
Michael LeBlanc
I hit elbows, but that feels like just weird.
Oliver Banks
Yeah, and I'm sure there's gonna be the extroverts chatting away and high fiving and everything and then the introverts sort of like, oh, I need to see you through a computer screen, right.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was an introverts, introverts paradise for the past 18 months, right. This is great. It's, it's a fascinating time.
Let's talk about the, let's shift gears a little bit. Let's talk about the state of retail transformation. It feels like you, we, we've never had a catalyst for transformation an external, exogenous catalysts, like COVID since, I don't know, the Second World War, even if that's similar. Do you see it the same way? And, I guess I'm, I, where I'm going with this is I think sometimes that the end of the COVID era means the end of the mission. Means the end of the drive for retail transformation, or have we just started? Have we ignited a retail transformation? Is your work easier than it was before? How you see it?
Oliver Banks
Well, that's the million-dollar question, right? You're absolutely right. We've, we've never had that trigger moment that has incited so much change in such a short amount of time. I'm sure we've can all reflect on different examples, or stories we've heard even, where, you know, we've, we've seen or done the huge change very quickly back in, you know, March, April, in particular last year. I think what we've seen since is actually that rate of change has slowed. Because, the urgency has gone away, or, or the initial change has actually been delivered. And that's probably the biggest challenge with regard to transformation going forward, is do we revert back to the slow way of doing things? Or do we keep some of the pace and some of the experimental nature that we learned during the pandemic? That's going to be a certainly an interesting challenge. And I think the best companies who, by the way, we're already pretty good at change, let's be honest, will continue to beat that drum and continue to evolve their operations, their operating model and their business for sure.
Michael LeBlanc
Well, it's an, I'm sure in your work, it's a lot of culture In transformation. I mean you highlighted earlier, your talk about it, really isn't about technology, but it's about culture. And I've talked to many CEOs who said, Listen, we've never had such a galvanizing mission. We didn't have to align people to get through COVID. We all knew there was a mission. But as that mission, thankfully fades, is that part that becomes, you know, what do you, what do you, what do you think retailers will retain from that? That kind of fast moving, but as it feels like it's going to get harder than easier, even compared to the before time because you had a mission. There's a bit of exhaustion, I'd imagine.
Oliver Banks
Yeah, I think that's,
Michael LeBlanc
I've heard.
Oliver Banks
Going to be something that's coming over the next couple of years, by the way. I think there'll be a long tail, exhaustion piece and burnout piece and so on.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah. I mean, as the as the mission fades, as the exhaustion starts to set in, I feel like there'll be transformation will become a, hey, we've done that. We transformed for COVID.
Oliver Banks
Yes.
Michael LeBlanc
Are you concerned about that?
Oliver Banks
I think there is this perception potentially, that yes, transformation is done. We have done, done our curbside rollout. We've done click and collect. We are omni channel, tick the box, next. But actually, transformation is more of an evolving beast, right? The world continues to change. And retailers, and all businesses, in fact, must change with it, right. So, unless the world decides to standstill, which I can't see happening anytime soon, then, then that change is inevitable as a cycle.
And what you don't want to do, is you don't want to sit on your laurels and wait until crisis actually emerges, you know, your own personal individual business crisis, whereby you actually are once again forced from a point of urgency, you know, maybe poor financials, for example. You're forced to transform. That's not going to be a pleasant scenario. Whereas, if you keep that evolution up, then, then you don't have to go through that wholesale, wholesale change.
Look at Amazon, right. They're the poster child for continuing to transform in my view.
Michael LeBlanc
Right, right.
Oliver Banks
They're continually trying new things. Not everything works. And something's back out, right. And that's okay. But, actually, what is interesting, what massive changes did Amazon do as a result of the pandemic? Nothing major, in my view, they did some pretty, pretty clever stuff around temperature probing colleagues as they're working, etc, just to assess if someone has Coronavirus. But, they weren't, from a proposition perspective, there weren't any major shifts. It wasn't like they decided, oh, my goodness, we must do this. Because they've already started on that journey. And they're continuing, continuing on it. And, you know, they've got that change or transformation momentum, which is so powerful as an organization, because it gets the entire team, you know, in terms of culture, gets the entire team accepting transformation and familiar with how to go about doing it as well.
Michael LeBlanc
It is part of their DNA right from the beginning. You're absolutely right, right. I mean, you don't join a retailer like Amazon, to ride out the rest of your career piece. You know, not, not the place for you.
Talk about a little bit about lessons that retailers should learn, the listeners should learn from the COVID era itself. I mean, we're, you know, we can see the end zone, the goalposts keep moving a little bit, but we can see the end zone, what is there anything you would, you would say that retailers should take away from this time that they should capture? And then one thing they should leave behind, permanently, from your experience.
Oliver Banks
Yeah, so, there are lots of things. I think, first and foremost, try new things, right. We've evaded fear of failure, because we've had to do something. And, it turns out, the majority of changes that every company have delivered, have been pretty, alright. There's been nothing catastrophic that has gone wrong. Things evolve, as they always do, as I was just saying, right? So, so try new things, take that experimental edge that you've, you've had over the last year and continue to have fun and have creativity, right.
And, I think it's also worthwhile looking at how your people are, how your colleagues are. We've become a lot more considerate both of ourselves and, and of others as well. And I'd hate to see that disappear. So, that's got to be something that we continue to take forward. And, I think, actually, it could get even easier, right? As we, as we revert back to more face-to-face meetings and catch ups in offices, and shopping, and everything like that. I'd love to see that, that consideration of people as people rather than doers, shall we say,
Michael LeBlanc
Well, I think we've never had a glimpse in society, into people's personal lives and this intersection of the personal, professional like we've had,
Oliver Banks
Yeah,
Michael LeBlanc
In the past 18 months, right. I you know, whether that, whether it's the dog barking or the kid climbing on your lap, or you see people's apartments or place. Like we never had that intersection, right, for good or ill sometimes.
Oliver Banks
Definitely, definitely. I think that's, that helps to open things up in terms of just having a general conversation. There's still, still more, more that we can do to be honest, for sure. Yes, I definitely think that's a lesson we have to take forward.
Third lesson I'd, I'd suggest is, thinking about, what's the point of any given proposition, or channel, or even your whole business, right, why are you doing it? What, what, why, why should a customer care? Why should a colleague care? Why should you care? And I think that whole point around purpose, which, again, is, is quite overused as a term, in my view, is really important still, because if you can't be clear, in very plain English terms, why a given thing exists, or why given thing is happening, then it just, it just loses that mission, and it loses the focus, and it loses that direction. And it gets a whole lot more complicated.
Michael LeBlanc
You know, retailers sometimes can be creatures of habit, organizationally, culturally, and, and all things, as a transformation expert, you would know that all too well. What, if anything, you could get your arms around that retailer should say, you know, what we, we used to do these things, we're never going to do that, we're gonna leave that behind. I've had, for example, some retailers say, you know, I used to, I used to want that bum in the seat, right. I, when I had my organization, I wanted everybody in the office, every day, five days a week, or I felt like I couldn't lead, or I felt like we weren't being productive, that comes up. Any, anything come to mind? Maybe that's jumps out to you.
Oliver Banks
Yeah, I mean, that, that's a great example. I think, we touched on it earlier, that, the procrastination piece, I think is going to be something that we leave behind. There's obviously a number of different reasons why any given individual, or organization, may choose to procrastinate over something, but it is a choice. And, we have seen the advantage of taking a faster pace, taking a more agile approach, you know, building minimum viable products and just,
Michael LeBlanc
Right.
Oliver Banks
Experimenting. That has got to be, for me, the thing to leave behind. Is, it's not deferred decision making. It's not inconclusive trial results. It's not, I can't decide, or I'm not gonna decide, or it's like lower priority than I need to think about. We proved to ourselves what we can do when we set our mind to it. And I don't want to revert back to fear of making a decision in many ways.
Michael LeBlanc
Do you think customers are going to come along with that ride? I've heard and perceive that there was some customer forgiveness for imperfections. You described the minimal viable product. I mean, certainly, when many retailers stood up curbside for the first, for the first time it was let's describe it as suboptimal. But, there was,
Oliver Banks
Love, hate.
Michael LeBlanc
There was some forgiveness, right. I'm going through one of those suboptimal experiences right now.
Oliver Banks
Not in this interview, I hope.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, it is actually,
Oliver Banks
Oh no,
Michael LeBlanc
They say I got it. I say I didn't. I didn't check the order at the curb. And now we're in a Mexican standoff. We can't agree who's got the product. Anyway, you know, the customers' forgiveness will start to evaporate as the COVID era evaporates. In other words, you know, their patience for imperfection. Or, do you think that customers have changed a little bit to?
Oliver Banks
Great question. I think it will fade. And, I think it won't fade so much with regard to the sort of the wider pandemic, but it's going to fade, if your competitors are doing it properly. If they are making mistakes, and you are making mistakes, that's the normal place, right? That's what customer's expectations are set by. But, if everyone else around you is leveling up, and you are still, let's say making mistakes, or giving a lumpy, lumpy experience, that's not going to look particularly good. So, you've, you've got to keep pace. And I think, you know, we've seen it with Amazon, right? I've touched on them already. But the shipping speeds, Amazon are continually leveling up. And, that gets the new standard in the UK. One of the big themes that we're seeing right at the moment is great commerce and 10-minute grocery deliveries, in particular in London of like all across London.
Michael LeBlanc
10-minute? How do you get anywhere in London in 10 minutes? I've driven in London before, come on, are they like droning it? How do you get anywhere in London in 10 minutes?
Oliver Banks
Scooters and bikes, and, you know, very clever, distributed warehouse layouts and organizations, I think. But it's, it's the same path that we've been on for the past couple of decades, right, faster, faster, faster. And, I think it's an incredibly, you know, in terms of, you know, reverting back in terms of customer expectations, it's incredibly easy as a consumer to see what's available and say, that's okay, that's, you start with that great, right? And then you and then it's good. And then, yeah that's okay. And then, what you don't do 10 minutes delivery? What? It's gonna take half an hour. Oh, man.
Michael LeBlanc
I don't know, though it does feel like, and years ago, I thought fast delivery was more niche than it was a mainline thing. And in some ways, at least here, delivery has slowed. It certainly has slowed down just by, you know, the package carriers have to keep their people safe. And so, delivery isn't as quick as it used to be. And, I wonder if people are like, hey, I really didn't need it in the day, I really could survive a couple of days. Or, do you think that will regress back to the mean, and that the race for, the race for curbside rapidity will, will resume?
Oliver Banks
Yeah, what, this is a huge question that sort of based around, do you really need it? You're absolutely right to raise that question, do you really need your groceries in 10 minutes? And, if you're in the middle of baking a cake, then perhaps,
Michael LeBlanc
Okay, sure.
Oliver Banks
They are quite niche cases right? Yeah, I think this will actually probably be driven by sustainability in terms of, actually, do I want to have vans driving up and down all day long? Or actually, could I wait you know, for one drop in a week? And, we're starting to see some companies do that. I think there's, there's opportunity as well for some of the couriers to be working together to drive some of that as well, of course. But I, I do think it will begin to ease off for some elements. But of course, the way I still think we're very much on the faster is better journey at the moment. But, it will come, it will come.
Michael LeBlanc
Let's talk about one last element about transforming a culture certainly, and this work from home movement, that, you know, where the organizations that will never work from home, did it in a week. And, now I think we're getting to a new place where, and I wanted your thoughts on it, where you can now hire senior leaders that aren't located physically where your headquarters is. And, you know, that for many retailers expands their scope of talent outside their own geographic limits. And, but of course, there's the cultural limit, right, the cultural element, right? It was, it was not really conceived of that you'd have your Vice President of Marketing somewhere else. But, is that the case now that you can transform a culture from your desktop? Is that more acceptable? Is that is that something, I'm always hesitant to say that this changes everything, but is it, my feeling, some days, is that the COVID era will change this perception about how we work more than it will change many other things? How are you feeling? And what are you experiencing with your clients about that?
Oliver Banks
It's a really interesting point. I think it very much depends on the existing culture. I can certainly think of some companies that are very quick to call people back to the office as soon as it is sort of socially acceptable to travel for work. Even if it's not recommended, let's say they were back in the office. And, the wording and phrasing was, was quite interesting for some of these companies in terms of, we must be together to collaborate, or we must be together to do you know, team working and to have team meetings and this and that and everything else.
Michael LeBlanc
Or even more subtly, you hear this, if you really want to advance your career, if you're really a key person, you'll show up. Like that very, very nefarious, actually, I found,
Oliver Banks
Yeah,
Michael LeBlanc
A very passive aggressive way of describing it to me,
Oliver Banks
I think those cultures, you know, that's, let's be honest, that's led by leadership, right? That's led by the boss saying to their team, thou shalt do this. And then there's those direct reports, then saying to their teams, thou shalt do this as well. It's possible to change. I can't see it changing because certainly, if you're, if you're promoting people up the chain from inside the company, it's the same lessons that you've, you've got, right? I think you definitely can transform, but it does take a strong will to be able to evolve a culture at the best of times, let's be honest. But, you definitely,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Oliver Banks
Can do it from a work from home situation in terms of just, just changing things, right. And, it does start from, from leadership. And it does start from having an intentional viewpoint as to how you're going to change it. Is it going to be that actually you want to be more considerate of your colleagues, you want to be more mindful? Is it that you want to add more creativity? Is it that you want to be faster, and make decisions faster? What is it that, that culture change is going to be about? And then, it's a question of embodying that through the Zoom window, or the Team's window, or whatever it is that you're using,
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah,
Oliver Banks
As well as using other channels, right? It doesn't need to only be video conferencing. Phones still good. You may blend in even,
Michael LeBlanc
Phone still works.
Oliver Banks
Face to face, you know, occasional face to face meetings in there as well. All of these things, you know, we talk about omni channel, right in terms of going out to customers, but actually, how are you going to use omni channel for your internal operating model as well, right? What does that,
Michael LeBlanc
Such a great point, that's such a great point. I've been reflecting on, you know, organizations that are, that are more successful, and others haven't taken their approach to work and culture and just put it on to a camera. They're starting to think in very dynamic ways. Like, let's get everyone together at a conference and then get a, you know, a hotel meeting room. And, we'll do that, what, you know, used to be an annual thing. Let's do it now, because we're saving office space dollars, and not everyone's in the office every day, let's do that, you know, around big conferences.
Oliver Banks
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc
Or let's do that like quarterly. And think, you know, how do we actually change and it's such a brilliant way you put it that that kind of multi omni channel approach to even running organization. Really, really brilliant.
All right, well, listen, Oliver, it's been such a great conversation. I love the work you do and, and encourage everybody listen to the podcast. I'll put, I'll put links in into the show notes so they can listen and enjoy your thoughts and wisdom some more. And, thanks so much for, for being on The Voice of Retail podcast. I look forward to seeing you in person. I haven't been over to Europe, and pretty much the longest time in many years. So, I look forward to walking the streets again of London and joining you for a beverage or two and vice versa. So, thanks again for joining me.
Oliver Banks
Definitely, well it's been wonderful chatting. You're an amazing host Michael, you're doing brilliant things in the world of retail. And yeah, thank you so much for having me on.
Michael LeBlanc
Thanks for tuning into today's episode of The Voice of Retail. Be sure to follow the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you enjoy podcasts, so you don't miss out on the latest episodes, industry news, and insights. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a rating and review as it really helps us grow so that we continue to get amazing guests onto the show.
I'm your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. Leblanc & Company Inc. And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co. Until next time, stay safe. Have a great week!