Award-winning digital marketing mavens and ReShift Media Founders Kirk Allen and Steve Buors join me on the podcast with the latest strategies and tactics in digital and social marketing for retailers.
Welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. My name is Michael LeBlanc, and I am your host, I believe in the power of storytelling to bring the retail industry to life. I'll bring insights, perspectives and experiences from some of the retail industry's most innovative and influential voices each week. This podcast is produced in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Award-winning digital marketing mavens and ReShift Media Founders Kirk Allen and Steve Buors join me on the podcast with the latest strategies and tactics in digital and social marketing for retailers. We delve in deep and understand how the modern privacy landscape impacts the use of tools such as Meta and Tik Tok, the evolution of the latest generation of platforms such as YouTube shorts, Reels, online streaming commerce, and first-party data. Last but not least, my good friends share the fantastic news that Reshift Media has been voted the world’s best franchise marketing firm by the Global Franchise Awards.
Thanks for tuning into this episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure and follow on your favorite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically each week. And check out my other retail industry media properties, Remarkable Retail podcast with Steve Dennis, and the Global eCommerce Leaders podcast. Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my YouTube barbecue show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week.
About Kirk
Kirk Allen has a passion for growing other people’s businesses through the powerful combination of traditional media, social, search and mobile. Kirk’s experience includes 30 years of cross-platform media sales within Canada’s largest media companies. Prior to becoming Co-Founder of ReShift Media, he was Executive Vice President, Integrated Advertising Sales at Postmedia Network Inc. Shifting gears, Kirk is co-founder of ReShift Media, a high-energy, entrepreneurial marketing company that works closely with advertising agencies as a natural extension of their organization.
Having held a variety of senior management roles within Canada’s largest media companies, Kirk also served on many industry boards including; CFA, IAB Canada, INMA, as well as NADbank. When he is not busy driving sales to a client’s door (virtual or real), he can often be found driving to the links and rinks around town.
About Steve
Steve has over a decade of digital marketing experience and has earned a reputation for being on top of emerging trends in social, search and mobile solutions. He has led many strategic initiatives and managed large teams of professionals in some of Canada’s leading companies to bring numerous digital products and innovations to market.
"Shifting" gears, Steve co-founded Reshift Media, a high-energy, entrepreneurial marketing company in 2012. In addition to being a digital marketing professional, Steve has earned his MBA, CMA and BComm designations. When he is not focused on delivering the industry’s most forward thinking search and social solutions, he can usually be found with his wife and children - optimizing playtime.
Specialties: Digital Media and Technology, Operational Management, Strategic and Operational Planning, Product and Project Management, Team Leadership and Collaboration, Corporate Finance and Accounting, Sales and Marketing, Partnerships and Acquisitions
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc. and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada and the Bank of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience with Levi's, Black & Decker, Hudson's Bay, Today's Shopping Choice and Pandora Jewellery.
Michael has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated worldwide in thought leadership panels. ReThink Retail has added Michael to their prestigious Top Global Retail Influencers list for 2023 for the third year in a row.
Michael is also the president of Maven Media, producing a network of leading trade podcasts, including Canada's top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail. He produces and co-hosts Remarkable Retail with best-selling author Steve Dennis, now ranked one of the top retail podcasts in the world.
Based in San Francisco, Global eCommerce Leaders podcast explores global cross-border issues and opportunities for eCommerce brands and retailers.
Last but not least, Michael is the producer and host of the "Last Request Barbeque" channel on YouTube, where he cooks meals to die for - and collaborates with top brands as a food and product influencer across North America.
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. My name is Michael LeBlanc, and I am your host. I believe in the power of storytelling to bring the retail industry to life. I'll bring insights, perspectives and experiences from some of the retail industry's most innovative and influential voices each week. This podcast is produced in conjunction with the Retail Council of Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 00:21
Award-winning digital marketing mavens and Reshift Media founders, Kirk Allen and Steve Buors. Join me on the podcast with the latest strategies and tactics in digital and social marketing for retailers. We delve deep and understand how the modern privacy landscape has impacted the use of tools such as Meta and TikTok. The evolution of the latest generation of platforms such as YouTube shorts, Reels, online streaming commerce and first-party data. Last but not least, my good friends share fantastic news. The Reshift Media has been voted the world's best franchise marketing firm, like Global Franchise Awards. Let's listen in now. Well, gentlemen, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. How are you doing this morning, Kirk? How are you?
Kirk Allen 01:05
I'm doing great, Mike, and thanks for having us.
Michael LeBlanc 01:09
Steve, this is a return visit for you, Kirk, this is your first time on the podcast amazingly, Steve, how are you?
Steve Buors 01:14
Very good. Thanks for having me. Again, Mike. I'm happy to be invited back.
Michael LeBlanc 01:18
Well, listen, the three of us have known each other for a long, long time. So, this is, I'm really looking forward to, our time today. And you guys got a big announcement. We'll get to that a bit later. Some fantastic achievements. I want to get to that later. I'll leave that as a teaser for the audience. But first of all, let's talk about you guys. So again, I know you really well, but not everyone does. So Kirk, tell us a bit about yourself. And then what you do and a bit of your background.
Kirk Allen 01:49
Sure, well, maybe I'll just kind of go back 15, 10-15 years ago when I was in the traditional media business, in particular newspapers. And I was heading up sales for at the time, Can West, and then Postmedia and was responsible for advertising sales, in both the newspapers, and also digitally. So, all of the digital assets. And about 10 years ago was when we started seeing the decline maybe 11 years ago in newspaper ad revenue. And Steve and I got together and talked about building this model, which would be a digital ad agency that would focus on social media search, web development and apps. And that, that sort of thing. So, anything to do with digital, because we saw the decline in newspaper revenue, and that wasn't coming back. So, we actually went to the market, built this business 10 and a half years ago, I guess it's 11 years this spring. And we, you know, haven't looked back ever since. So, we do everything from social media, search both organic and paid websites, we deal with lots of retailers and lots of franchise systems, not only in Canada, but in the US and around the world. So, we've got about 200 customers in 20 countries around the world today. We started with none and here we are today. We built a really solid business and we're having a lot of fun.
Michael LeBlanc 03:19
And how big is the team now? I mean, are any of you remote? I've been to your office pre-pandemic but talk about that a little bit.
Kirk Allen 03:25
Yeah, great question. So, March 2020, we were in this beautiful office, down near the distillery district. I think you were in it, Mike.
Michael LeBlanc 03:28
Yeah.
Kirk Allen 03:29
You know, we're on the top floor, skylights, open concept, though.
Michael LeBlanc 03:39
The world is our oyster. Everything's great. It was fabulous. It
Kirk Allen 03:42
It was fabulous, it was a beautiful office, we renovated it. Very proud of it. But it was an open office concept. And when COVID hit, so on whatever that Friday was the 13th or 14th, to whatever of March, we said, Okay, well, we're gonna have to close the office for a couple of weeks because of COVID. And, you know, four months later, we're still working from home. And fast forward to September of 2020. And we actually bought out our lease and we're in the year one, sixth months of a five year lease. So, we bought out our lease and said, You know what, this isn't going away anytime soon.
Michael LeBlanc 04:10
Good call.
Kirk Allen 04:12
We'll work from home and then We'll re-evaluate. So, here we are, three years later, almost, I guess this month, and we are a remote company. We all work from home. It's going extremely well. And, you know, we have a daily call at 10 o'clock and everyone's on that call. And from there, the teams, you know, go off into different directions. We're a team of about 30 right now. Depending on the day, I think 31 tomorrow, but 30 today. And yeah, we've got a great team and tomorrow. In fact, we're doing a team building event and we're going tubing up at Barrie with our team and have some fun on the slopes. So, we're doing things like that to try to make sure we get together at least every few months in person.
Michael LeBlanc 05:11
I mean, the, the, what I hear most from retail executives, people like yourself as leaders similar to yourself. Is it, is it, remote works very good for productivity. But you really have to be thoughtful about creating a team together. I mean, you, you are a master team builder. So, you know, I think a lot of people would look to us for lessons on how to keep cohesion and attachment and everyone going in the same direction. So, you're, you're envisioning doing more of these team building things, but not necessarily all together, you know, eight hours a day, but kind of find these opportunities. Yeah, that's, that's the kind of the plan you're thinking about.
Kirk Allen 05:46
Exactly. You know, tomorrow at three o'clock, we'll do some tubing from three to five, we'll go for, you know, a beer or a glass of wine and some dinner afterwards. And then everyone goes home, and we're back at it Friday morning. So, we're trying to, we're gonna do, things like axe throwing, and curling, and we rented a boat for like, last June, where we toured the Toronto islands. So, stuff like that just to, because a lot of our team Mike, haven't met each other in person, because they've been hired, you know, during the pandemic, and you know, people who were hired two months ago, haven't met anyone on the team. So, this would be their first-time meeting people.
Michael LeBlanc 06:25
All right, Steve, Kirk's been hogging the mic, your turn. Your voice, and name would be very familiar to, to the listeners, you've been on stage many times at the Retail Council of Canada events and in the industry. But take a step back. Steve, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and how you two came into thinking about how you're going to focus the organisation from both the technology and from a product perspective. What were you going to go to market with?
Steve Buors 06:52
Yeah, it's, it's funny to look back, actually, because it feels like 100 years ago, but also just yesterday. So, Kirk and I actually worked together at Can West and Postmedia. So, while he was leading the sales team, I was on the digital side. So, I was kind of building the products and he was selling them. And we worked together incredibly well over multiple years in corporate life. And so as Kirk said, when we started to see that, you know, maybe this traditional media thing wasn't, wasn't going in the direction we wanted it to. I remember very vividly saying to Kirk, it's time to stop being a defence and go on offence for a while. So,
Michael LeBlanc 07:29
Nor was Can West going in the direction that we wanted it to, by the way. That's how we, for the listeners, that's how we all know each other. We all work at Can West, we intersected at that point.
Steve Buors 07:38
Yeah, exactly. Those were interesting times to say the least. (Crossover talk). So, over a drink, Kirk and I talked about the dream of an agency.
Michael LeBlanc 07:46
Yeah.
Steve Buors 07:47
We got some private investors who took a bit of a chance on a couple of guys who, you know, were first time entrepreneurs. I give massive credit to my friend Kirk here who became an entrepreneur, you know, post-40 years old, which is quite unusual, I would say. And yeah, we had no clients. But we had a dream of creating an agency and being, you know, the biggest agency in Canada for retailers and franchise systems and restaurant chains. And, you know, the rest is history. Ten years and we got a great team and we're having a lot of fun.
Michael LeBlanc 08:24
Well, a shout out to our good friend Arturo, who was kind of the galvanising glue that brought us all together if he's listening. Let me ask you this question as you, as you reflect back on those days, Steve, when you think about the direction that the media was going, did things pan out the way you thought they would? Or were they, were there any surprises as you think about it, I mean, it was clear the classifieds were gonna get annihilated one way shape or another. Although the papers had some, you know, that was their core business. They had some ways to continue to go after it, but did anything un-, unravel the way you, were you surprised at anything that happened since you've left? Let's call that the traditional media, business and their attempts to go into digital.
Steve Buors 09:07
I would love to say I've been surprised, unfortunately, I haven't really classified, you hit the nail on the head on that one, we saw that coming. Craigslist, back in the day, was the first sort of threat and then obviously Kijiji in Canada. And we saw the writing on the wall. In fact, I remember we made some trips overseas, because there were some newspaper groups in Europe who had successfully transitioned to digital. And the real way they did that was they went free very rapidly. And in Canada, obviously, it was a very lucrative revenue model in classifieds. And so it was, it was hard for the organisation to get their heads wrapped around a free model for something that they've been paid for, for a very, very long time. So, the classified decline was predictable and unfortunately happened faster I think, than probably most traditional organisations would have expected.
Michael LeBlanc 09:59
Just like the frog in the, it was like the frog in the boiling water, right? Slowly but then suddenly.
Steve Buors 10:05
I completely agree, you're right. We saw erosion and then suddenly just fell off a cliff. And then,
Michael LeBlanc 10:13
Yeah.
Steve Buors 10:14
You know, online CPMs, you know, back in the day, I also remember the $50 CPM, we once, we once earned but those days are long gone.
Michael LeBlanc 10:19
Those days are long gone, yeah.
Steve Buors 10:21
So, and to this day, I don't believe there's a newsroom anywhere in the world that could fund itself with its online revenue still. I think the New York Times is close. But it's, it's, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 10:33
Maybe the Wall Street Journal does, does, does pretty good. But it's hard to say, right?
Steve Buors 10:38
Well, yeah, they got their subscription model, (crossover talk) that's what they do for sure. Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 10:42
Kirk, let's talk about, let's take a step back. Let's talk about you just telling me off mic, you just got back from Vegas and hit that little white ball down the fairway. But you didn't go to Vegas to play golf, you can go to a bunch of places to play golf. What are you doing in Vegas? And tell us, tell us about your award? It's fantastic news.
Kirk Allen 10:58
Yeah. Thank you, Mike. So, we were down there for the International Franchise Association convention. It's an annual convention, with 4000 people, a combination of franchise owners, some franchisees and suppliers. And prior to that convention, there is another company, the Global Franchise Awards. So, this is an international company that has different franchise associations from Australia and the UK and Canada and the US who get together and have a number of categories where they ask people to enter, and they're voted on and then they announce it on the night prior to the actual convention. So, we entered the, for the best franchise marketing firm. And we found out about two weeks prior that we were finalists, which was very exciting. And you know, quite honestly, when we entered this, we went, yeah, this might be a bit of a, you know, a long shot for us. But I think we can, you know we have a good story to tell.
Michael LeBlanc 12:10
Now to be clear, now to be clear, just so I'm clear. You entered a marketing firm, not a digital marketing firm, right? It's (crossover talk) overall marketing firm, right? That's a big, that's a big pool, that's a big of competition
Kirk Allen 12:23
That's well said, You’re, you’re absolutely correct. So, it was a franchise marketing firm. And so you know, a couple of weeks ago, we found out we're finalists, that's fantastic. They sent us a badge we can use in our social media; we can put it on our website. And then, on Saturday night, we won the actual award. Honestly, it's the biggest award we could have ever dreamed of winning and right after that. So, the following day, and we had our team down, we had our management team down, we had, you know, our, you know, our CTO, we had our Vice President of search, our Vice President of social media, are Creative Director, and Steve and myself, and it was really, really a team effort. And without the team, we wouldn't have won this award, of course. So,
Michael LeBlanc 13:01
Yeah.
Kirk Allen 13:02
It's really, you know, thanks to the team that we won the award. And then the days following at the actual convention, people were coming up to us, hey, we hear you won this award. And it turns out, we're the first Canadian company to win the award. So yeah, and with a very nice organisation, they sent us pictures, there's an interview that was done. We don't have that yet. There's a magazine coming out with a summary of all the winners. And yeah, we're honoured and pleasantly surprised.
Michael LeBlanc 13:48
Well, in one way, I'd call it a great capstone to 10 years of the business, but in other ways you guys ain't done yet. So, it's no capstone, it's just another milestone. I think I would phrase it. So, you know, congratulations.
Ken Allen 13:58
Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Mike.
Michael LeBlanc 13:61
It's Great, great to see your success. All right, Steve, let's transition and talk about tradecraft for a little bit. Listen, since I mean, 10 years, my God, lots of change. So, let's not make this a history lesson. But, you know, since you guys have started, and even since, geez, I don't know, like COVID, post-COVID. Lots of new players in the game. You know, new clients, top platforms, what, what's on your mind when it comes to what you're thinking about the players in the games and the landscape? And you know, I talked to retailers and analysts who say, Listen, it's tough to win the way you used to in search. It's more like a utility than, you know, the differentiator became table stakes. What's your experience with your clients around, when you go to talk to them about how to win in these areas? Or is there winning or is there just listening, you got to be there, and we'll try to find different ways to go at it, talk about that for a bit.
Steve Buors 14:50
Oh, absolutely. And you can still win, but I would agree that the playing field keeps changing. You know, I liken it to golf where you know you can be a great golfer, but you're playing a different course every day. So, you got to be able to adjust to the conditions. A big thing, you know, looking back over 10 years is just that transition from, we used to be able to do so much organically, organic social media, you had great reach, you could do great branding. And you can really grow business, organic search, which is still big, obviously. But it was, it was really more visible on your phone than it is today with how they've arranged the search advertising. So, there's been a major shift to a pay-to-play sort of model on search and on social in particular, I think we all know today that although you need to have a Facebook page and Instagram handle, your ability to get organic reach is nothing compared to what it used to be. And if you really want to be successful, you gotta put some dollars behind it.
Michael LeBlanc 15:52
Yeah, YouTube as well. What do you, what do, I mean, that's been my personal experience with YouTube with my cooking show? And you know, the, you know, the algorithm doesn't work to drive, what works is advertising. Is that consistent with your experience? Or is there a way to, is there a way to get more out of platforms like YouTube? Like, there's still ways to be successful? But as you say, you need to, you need to amplify it, right?
Steve Buors 16:17
Yeah, absolutely. You can always be successful in a niche, depending on the level of competition you have, and obviously the amount of views you're getting, and likes and subscriptions, etc. But what most people don't realise is to get there, you kind of have to prime the pump. So, you don't just throw up a YouTube channel or an Instagram page and wait for the fans to roll in. You have to start somewhere. And the way you start is by getting some promotion and have to pay YouTube, you have to pay Instagram and Facebook, to get that first sort of bump. Once you get some momentum, you can certainly have a little more success. And once you build that audience to a degree, you can have more success. But across the board, it doesn't matter which platform we're talking with these days. It's about monetization. For sure.
Michael LeBlanc 17:03
I get these emails all the time unsolicited emails from people around the world saying I'm an expert in YouTube or whatever. I'm an expert in Facebook and Instagram, and I will drive your sales organically. Is this just a hustle? I mean, is there a way to game it ? I've heard there's ways to game, YouTube, for example, that if you get caught you're in trouble is, is, is that something that you, you see around? I wouldn't call it in any way your competition. But is it something that your clients are seeing, go hey, this, this guy from wherever promises to drive my thing and you say you can't do it? What do you think about that?
Steve Buors 17:37
We get forwarded those emails from our clients, (crossover talk). Hey, this guy says you can do it. Yeah, I get those emails too. Like, I can't tell you how often I get someone emailing me saying I can make reshiftmedia.com have better (crossover talk). Yeah, good luck with that. If you can do that, that would be quite a feat. Yeah, those are just spam emails. And yes, of course, there's always a way to game a system. There always is. But you know, Google, Facebook, all these companies have armies of people who are actively looking for that, both using technology and bots, but also using actual people. And we've seen a real increase. As we all know, there's been some legal scrutiny and political scrutiny, particularly in the US with you know, Facebook in particular, but across the board. And we've seen a real crackdown in terms of these platforms, looking for people trying to game the system, even on advertising, and you can't even pay for certain things anymore.
Michael LeBlanc 17:59
Right.
Steve Buors 17:60
Because the platforms are getting themselves in some hot water. So yeah, you might have some short-term success if you managed to find some little trick or some fake clicks and things like that, but it's always short lived.
Michael LeBlanc 18:56
Is LinkedIn the last bastion of anything like organic growth? I mean, I like LinkedIn. And it does seem to have a good audience. Is that, is that maybe the last bastion of some opportunity for success in organic?
Steve Buors 19:10
No, I wouldn't say that. LinkedIn is great in specific verticals for sure. Obviously, yourself Mike, in your business, I could see LinkedIn being magnificent. Anyone who's in a recruitment or any kind of sales position, probably loves LinkedIn. You know, anything outside of LinkedIn doesn't have as much stickiness. But we're seeing great results on TikTok as an example. It obviously skews much younger. But the level of commitment people have to using TikTok is quite astounding in terms of the time spent a number of (inaudible) they open in a day. So, organic reach on some platforms is still quite good. Particularly if they're a newish platform. But what invariably happens is once they get scale and once they get to a certain level of sophistication, it flips over to pay, it again.
Michael LeBlanc 20:01
You know, we, we got the now, we got to now.
Steve Buors 20:04
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 20:06
Kirk, let's talk about, let's transition to talk about privacy. And, and I'm sure this is something you hear from both your existing clients and prospective clients. I mean, we really had an incident not too long ago where the Canadian government tattooed or tagged a Canadian retailer with Meta for, for some privacy breaches, not privacy breaches. But some, some behaviours that weren't positive. Is it, let's pull these two thoughts together, can social media marketing still be as effective as it ever was? And what do you think about privacy? I don't want to say privacy breaches. But you know, the privacy concerns that seem to be escalating and, and you know, are the platforms really paying attention? And is it your job? Do you consider your job to look out for your clients’ best interests when you're dealing with these big platforms?
Kirk Allen 20:55
Well, it was kind of out of control. To be honest, it was a bit of the Wild West. And, you know, especially in Canada, now, it's much more controlled, where if we are going to upload a customer list into Facebook, to create a custom audience, you have to have approval, that, that has to be a list that the customers have opted in for. So, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 21:19
And that and that was the nub of the issue, right? The approval can't be buried in page 32 of the T's and C's, right. I mean, that's really what, what the government said in its recent ruling, right, is that, is that a fair statement?
Kirk Allen 21:31
You have to have implicit proof like you have to back-up that that person on this day gave us authorization to converse with them to follow-up and send out promotional (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 21:43
But you know, it's interesting, I mean let me follow that thread. I mean, are you going to say to someone, hey, by the way, subscribe to my email list? And I'm gonna give that email list by the way to Meta who's going to create more marketing for me, are you okay with that? You know, you know, I think that's that, as you said, it was the Wild West that was happening. But, are we at that point where you need to be that precise about you know, your declarations? I mean, who would want to opt into that list, then? I mean, right?
Kirk Allen 22:09
Well, put it this way, first party data is the best ad you can have.
Michael LeBlanc 22:16
And define that for the, for the listeners, just to make sure everybody knows what, what's, (crossover talk).
Kirk Allen 22:20
So, that means someone explicitly agreed for you to communicate with them. Once they've signed up for an email, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 22:31
Like a retailer's in-house list, and we would call it an in-house list, basically, right? (Crossover talk).
Kirk Allen 22:36
Right. So, you have to have that authorization, if you are going to communicate with them in any way, whether it's an email blast, the I guess, the, you know, even Facebook, they actually, when you go to upload a list, they actually, there's a disclaimer, and Steve, maybe you know what the disclaimer says better than I, but it actually says, Do you have approval to use this list in marketing? So, they actually, you know, as an agency, we always make sure that this has been an approved list, it's compliant with Castle here in Canada. So, we always make sure because we don't want to be the ones who are called on the carpet for using a list that hasn't been approved. So, as an agency, it is our place and our role to make sure that we aren't, you know, violating any rules. So, we're very, very careful about that. But at the end of the day, you know, is it ever as effective as it once was? Well, I would say this, that first party data is much your, your conversion rates are probably much higher with that type of a client than just big blast out to the world, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 23:51
That's always been, that's always been the case, though. I mean, really,
Kirk Allen 23:54
True, true.
Michael LeBlanc 23:56
Right, like buying, buying back in our day, you know, to buy a list of emails that they were, they were very unproductive, but they were cheap, I guess.
Kirk Allen 24:02
Well, that's a really good point. And in the US, right now, the laws aren't as tight. So, you can buy a list and blast away. And whereas in Canada, like people will call you out on it, if you email them, and they didn't sign up, you actually hear back.
Michael LeBlanc 24:18
What's your, what, what's your, that's the interesting part. What's your experience in the US? Is it, is it still the case that you can do you know, these bulk emails and, and be successful at scale like it because they just have a much bigger scale, I guess? And does it, is it a still a tactic that you employ with your US clients?
Kirk Allen 24:36
Well, it's a great question. So, our conversion rates in Canada are in terms of form completions, or whatever the call to action is, is in Canada are much greater than the US simply because it's already a pre-approved list. So, the people you're reaching out to have agreed to converse with you. In the US, yes, it's, you know, 10-15 times the amount of emails but the conversion rates are lower because they haven't actually agreed to converse with you. So, you know, you've got a bigger volume. And you know, the ruling isn't as strict, but the conversion rates on a percentage basis aren't as good.
Michael LeBlanc 25:14
Except in California, right? I mean, not to get into the new prices. But I think California is more like (inaudible), in Canada. Steve, let's talk a little bit more broadly from search to online, online, live stream commerce to this nonsense of the metaverse? What are the prospects for the rest of the year? Where are you pointing your clients? And what are you talking to them about as you think about 2023 and beyond. What’s the priorities for, for you, and that you're advising your clients?
Steve Buors 25:41
Well, the number one thing actually Kirk just hit on is first party data. So, privacy is gaining more and more momentum. Obviously, Apple has been very active in the past couple of years, as we all know, but even all of your major browsers, you know, Safari and Firefox have already severely limited third-party cookies. Chrome is saying they're going to be doing the same by 2024. So, what that means is any kind of third-party data system you're using, that's based on, on third party data cookies, is basically going away the dodo.
Steve Buors 26:07
So, the big piece of work we've been doing with our clients for the last couple years, and certainly has a huge push in 2023, is to make sure we've actually thought through a good first party data approach. So, how are you gathering information from your clients? How are you storing it securely, so you don't have any kind of privacy breaches, data breaches? And then what are you doing with it? Is it, is it just marketing messaging, is it product improvement, is it ongoing surveys? So, we've been doing a lot of work in that regard to make sure that come 2024-2025 our clients aren't being disadvantaged. Anyone who's relying exclusively on, you know, platform based targeting, interests based or even you know, audience based targeting, but without the first party data, they're going to see a major degradation in their performance in the next couple of years without question.
Michael LeBlanc 27:09
Interesting, interesting. Kirk, last question to you, which is, you know, you are often the face or the voice of, of the agency, you know, when you're talking to clients, or prospective clients, and when you were in Vegas, people coming up to you to congratulate you and then say, hey, what do you guys do for a living? What are the top three things they're asking for most often? Like, you know, do they have some, do they come in and they say, Listen, that's a myth, this is the reality. And, and, you know, when they come up and talk to you about here, you know, we're looking for somebody that can help us with this, we have this problem. What do you, what are you hearing most often?
Kirk Allen 27:42
Well, that's a great question, Mike. So, you know, if we look back to last year, and it still continues into this year, it's eComm. Can you guys’ bolt eComm onto my website, because they realise that brick and mortar is not the only way to go. So yes, we can, we do it, we've, we've probably added eComm to more websites in the last two years, and we've done ever. So, that's certainly one. (Crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 27:59
Just let me follow up on that. What platform? Do you have a choice of platforms that you use? Do you look at one to the other as a case specific? What do you think about that?
Kirk Allen 28:08
Well, there's so many options. So, you know, the platform we typically build our websites on, you know, is WordPress, and then they've got different plugins like WooCommerce. You know, there's also things like, you know, Shopify, so there's depends on what the client is trying to achieve. And you know, are they part of the delivery or are they not? So, you know we have to understand what their objectives are first before we actually suggest a platform. But often it could be if it's an existing website, it could be a plugin like WooCommerce that we would, we'd add on but they, they all think it can happen within a week. Hey, can we have that for next week? (Crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 28:41
That’s the story, right. Hey, it's, it's in the cloud, just pull it down from the cloud and hook it up, right?
Kirk Allen 29:01
It can be difficult. But often, Mike, and shockingly, they haven't thought about fulfilment and process internally at their own company. So, you can add it on, but they haven’t thought about, okay, how does this work? You know, how do orders get taken? How does inventory get managed? You know, does the local retailer closest to that location get credit for the sale like little things like that come up.
Michael LeBlanc 29:29
It's a big deal in the franchise world, right? I mean, the franchise world that you guys not I don't know would you say primarily play in or certainly a big focus, (crossover talk).
Kirk Allen 29:37
The multi-location businesses franchise probably being the biggest part of retail in general for sure.
Michael LeBlanc 29:42
And there's a tension sometimes between franchise and franchisor when it comes to eCommerce, right, who gets the sale? Who's getting most of the sale? How do you, how do you guys think of that? Do you often get asked how we can do this? How do we both win; how do the franchisees win and how do the franchisors win?
Kirk Allen 29:57
Well, you see a lot of different models, typically they like to somehow include the franchisee that they're getting either pick the product up at their store in some cases, or they're getting you know (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 30:12
Credit for the sale or something, yeah.
Kirk Allen 30:14
Credited for the sale. So, that's most common. I would say the ones who don't do that get a lot of heat from their friends.
Michael LeBlanc 30:18
Yeah.
Kirk Allen 30:19
So, that's a bit of a very popular one. The other one is AI. So, you know, everyone's talking about, hey, well, I should be in AI. Can't I be using this, you know, ChatGBT. And it certainly has its place. And I think we're just at the, you know, at the, we're at the tip of the iceberg on this. There are so many applications for ChatGPT, and AI in general. And I think you still need to have human intervention. And that's what a lot of people don't realise. So, that's another very, very popular one. And then the last one, Mike, would be what's TikTok? Why aren’t we on TikTok? They always want the, the, my kids are on TikTok. So, why aren't we on TikTok?
Kirk Allen 30:24
So, it's all just that shiny, new digital marketing platform. And Steve touched on this earlier, but that comes up all the time. And then we'll. we'll talk to him. And then we will go well. For example, in Canada, Mike and TikTok are really good examples. For a retailer or for a franchise system, you can only target as low as city level and they only have 25 cities, they can target in Canada, so you can't get down to the postal code, you can't get down to the neighbourhood. So, you know, a big part of our focus at Reshift Media is hyperlocal targeting when it comes to you know organic, but also paid and that's part of our secret sauce is we’ll get better results because we're not going to waste your ad dollars we're going to be targeting whether it's a postal code or postal codes or a five kilometre radius around your locations, but you can't do that with some platforms. So,
Michael LeBlanc 32:02
And very, very important when you're working in a franchisee system, right? I got my, my trading area, you know, I got my, my, my fellow franchisee has got a different trading area, but we can't run the same TikTok in Toronto or whatever. It's something that broad, right, that kind of big broad brush it’s too, is a bit too, what are you hearing about? I just want to follow-up on that. What are you hearing about, about the YouTube Shorts? I see more and more of them coming up. I've heard from a couple of retailers who are, they say it's growing. Is that the next thing? I mean, really TikTok exploded, this short form video idea Reels, Meta came in with Reels. And now YouTube's got some plans. On YouTube, you can target pretty, pretty precisely, right?
Kirk Allen 32:41
You can do better. So, short form videos are certainly hot right now. There's no doubt about it. It performs better, whether it's on Facebook, Instagram, you know, obviously TikTok also, you know, pre-rolls, mid-rolls and end-of-rolls when it comes to, to YouTube.
Michael LeBlanc 33:00
Jelly rolls, whatever. Yeah, yeah, (crossover talk) egg rolls.
Kirk Allen 33:04
It's absolutely, you know, short form video performs very, very well, regardless of the platform, to be honest, and
Michael LeBlanc 33:13
Now when you, when you say perform is that for views or, and I'm not, I don't want to get too far in the weeds. But when you say performing, with my experience with TikTok, I had six-700,000 views on one of my TikTok for my barbecue show. You know, I saw no lift whatsoever in the show metrics. But you know, it's good to have a big audience, but is it good converting? Or is it just way up in the funnel for awareness? And,
Kirk Allen 33:35
Well, that's a really good point, Mike, it's brand awareness. And, you know, you're not getting people filling in a form or, you know, ordering something right from a TikTok. But, you know, in your case, there's probably no call to action anyhow, you know, by Mike's, you know, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 33:55
Watch the full video, I mean, that my hope from,
Kirk Allen 33:57
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 33:58
A mechanism like that would be just watch the longer form video where I hope to monetize and you know, and that kind of thing.
Kirk Allen 34:02
At the same time, if you look at something like, you know, Instagram or TikTok people are selling product through those platforms, but you've got to have a call to action, you know, but it certainly there are certainly platforms that can convert, whether it's sell product, fill in a form, you know, they all have, I guess it depends on the category too, right? Like fashion does very, very well. Food does very, very well on Instagram, but other products not so much. But amazingly Mike today, Facebook and Instagram because of that local nature. And if you're a retailer or a franchise system, having local Facebook pages still perform very, very well because of that local nature they have. And the whole shop local plays right into that.
Michael LeBlanc 34:51
Right.
Kirk Allen 34:52
Whereas something like a TikTok or Snapchat just doesn't have, it's just not a local play today.
Michael LeBlanc 34:55
Yeah.
Kirk Allen 34:56
So, a little bit more than the US actually the targeting is better. So, you know, you don't want to talk about TikTok; it can't go below city level; they can in the US but not in Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 35:11
If people want to get in touch with your agency, Steve, where do they go to get in touch with Kirk and get in touch with yourself? I mean, your font of wisdom when it comes to these things. Where do they go? And how do they get in touch?
Steve Buors 35:23
Best place to go is reshiftmedia.com. We've got all of our contact information on there. Great Blog, if you're interested in keeping up with what's going on in digital media on an ongoing basis. And yeah, you can certainly get in touch with myself or Kirk right through our website.
Michael LeBlanc 35:39
Fantastic. Well, gentlemen, thanks for joining me on the mic. Once again, congratulations on your great achievement and winning a fantastic award. Again, it's not a capstone but just another milestone. So, I'm sure great things ahead for you and, and for your clients. So, once again, thanks for joining me on The Voice of Retail podcast, it’s a real treat catching up, and I look forward to seeing you in person real soon.
Steve Buors 35:59
Thanks for having us, Mike. Really appreciate it.
Michael LeBlanc 36:00
Thanks for tuning into this episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure to follow on your favourite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically each week. And be sure to check out my other retail industry media properties Remarkable Retail podcast with Steve Dennis and the Global eCommerce Leaders podcast. Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my YouTube barbecue show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week.
I'm your host Michael LeBlanc, Consumer Growth Consultant, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc., and Maven Media, and keynote speaker. If you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co.
Safe travels everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, platforms, Canada, clients, Steve, big, franchise, Mike, Kirk, short form video, retailer, youtube, podcast, retail, privacy breaches, LinkedIn, sale, bit, emails