According to Soon Yu in his new book "Friction: Adding Value By Making People Work For It", the idea of friction as a uniformly bad thing that needs to be rooted out is too simple, two dimensional.
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
According to Soon Yu in his new book "Friction: Adding Value By Making People Work For It", the idea of friction as a uniformly bad thing that needs to be rooted out is too simple, two dimensional.
Soon has poured a lifetime of experience with major brands, consulting and start-ups into a very thought provoking work helping us understand that in many instances a bit of friction, a few speed bumps, are a good thing and can actually help build customer engagement and loyalty.
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http://www.soonyu.com/
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven’t already, be sure and click subscribe on your favourite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week, and check out my other retail industry media properties; the Remarkable Retail podcast, the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and the Food Professor podcast. Last but not least, if you are into BBQ, check out my all new YouTube barbecue show, Last Request Barbeque, with new episodes each and every week!
I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company & Maven Media, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co! Have a safe week everyone!
About Soon
Soon Yu is an international speaker, award-winning and best-selling author on branding, innovation and design, and Forbes contributor who has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Entrepreneur Magazine and New York Times.
His latest book, Friction, challenges businesses to consider adding MORE friction for their customers and employees in order to create greater engagement, meaning, belonging, rapport, assurance, competence, and exclusivity.
His previous book, Iconic Advantage®, challenges businesses, from Fortune 500 to venture-backed startups, to refocus their innovation priorities on building greater iconicity, and offers deeper insights on establishing timeless distinction and relevance.
He most recently served as the Global VP of Innovation and Corporate Officer at VF Corporation, parent organization to over 30 global apparel companies, including The North Face, Vans, Timberland, and Supreme. While at VF, Soon commercialized a $2 billion innovation pipeline, established 3 global innovation centers, and initiated industry-leading design and innovation best practices.
Prior to this, he worked at The Clorox Company and Chiquita Brands, where he won company-wide awards for best advertising, best promotion and best new product, and gained industry recognition from the Webby Award, Favorite Website Award and Dope Award. He has also been a consultant at Bain and Company, a founder and CEO for numerous venture-backed startups and was recognized as a Northern California finalist for the prestigious Ernst & Young “Entrepreneur of the Year” award.
He is a highly sought-after speaker on leadership, branding, innovation, design and entrepreneurship, and has taught at the Parsons School of Design and often guest lectures at Stanford University (where he received his MBA and is active with the GSB Asian Alumni Association).
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated on thought leadership panels worldwide. Michael was recently added to ReThink Retail’s prestigious Top 100 Global Retail Influencers for a second year in 2022.
Michael is also the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts, including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus the Remarkable Retail with author Steve Dennis, Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Most recently, Michael launched Conversations with CommerceNext, a podcast focussed on retail eCommerce, digital marketing and retail careers - all available on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music and all major podcast platforms. Michael is also the producer and host of the “Last Request Barbeque” channel on YouTube where he cooks meals to die for and influencer riches.
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc. And this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 00:10
According to Soon Yu new and his new book "Friction: Adding Value By Making People Work For It", the idea of friction as a uniformly bad thing that needs to be routed out and eliminated, is too simple, two dimensional.
Michael LeBlanc 00:23
Soon, has poured a lifetime experience with major brands, startups and consulting into a very thought provoking work helping us understand that in many instances, a bit of friction, a few speed bumps are a good thing. And it can actually help build customer engagement and loyalty.
Soon Yu 00:38
But to be commensurate with the effort you put in, you want to feel like, hey, the program itself is considered. It's it is actually, you know, it's not an auto answer. It's actually something where it reflects the effort you put into it. And therefore, it's going to put in the right amount of effort to match that. And so you they sometimes they put up the, the, the processing bar, you know, the little time bar that goes across the screen to show you that, hey, they're, they're, they're, they're checking every single, (inaudible).
Michael LeBlanc 01:15
Soon, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. How are you doing this afternoon?
Soon Yu 01:18
Oh, thanks for the invite Michael, excited to be joining me on this.
Michael LeBlanc 01:23
Well, I've been looking forward to chitting and chatting and I had an advanced copy of your book, and we'll get to talking about that. Where am I finding you today?
Soon Yu 01:30
I am in the San Francisco Bay area.
Michael LeBlanc 01:31
We're kind of jump right in, let's start, let's start at the beginning. Tell us about yourself, your background, you've got an interesting background in everything from you got consulting, you pack-, lots of package good stuff, and, and lots of interesting things. So, give us a quick overview of who you are, and, and how you got where you are and, and what you do.
Soon Yu 01:51
Yeah, so, you know I always start with sort of the big picture of it all. And I would probably say that I'm a brand anthropologist, and probably a better term would be I'm a brand nerd. I've always been very curious about how brands and people form relationships, and how in, especially the brands that we love the most, we fall in love with those brands.
Soon Yu 02:16
And I always felt that as brand caretakers, those of us fortunate enough to actually be working on brands and, and products and, and, and creating those relationships with the folks. That it is really important, as a brand caretaker, to make sure that we never gave consumers a reasons to fall out of love with the brand or ever to be on the fence on, on the brand.
Soon Yu 02:41
And so, that curiosity led to lots of questioning and lots of, of questions that I had. And also a journey in terms of working on brands on so many different levels. As you mentioned, I started early in my career as a consultant, I realized I wasn't very good at that. Because I probably have more questions than I had answers. And you know, especially when you're a young consultant, I don't know I suffer from a lot of impostor syndrome. I'm like, I don't (inaudible), I'm 20 some years old, I don't know how to tell a 40 year old what to do.
Michael LeBlanc 03:14
Yeah, yeah, (crossover talk), -
Soon Yu 03:14
And I realized that, maybe I need a little more training. So, I ended up going back into business school, which, quite frankly, still didn't provide me the answers that I needed. And it wasn't until I left business school, and worked for Clorox, which is a, you know, huge consumer products company. They sell everything from Combat Roach Killer to Hidden Valley Ranch, but of course, they sell the full line of cleaning products and laundry care products. And I had the fortune of being able to work on one of the sexiest brands in the portfolio, toilet bowl cleaners.
Michael LeBlanc 03:57
There's a lot that goes into those things, man, let me tell you. They got to stick to the sidewalls. I mean, (crossover talk), right, -
Soon Yu 04:03
Oh, let me tell you, I was a hit up most cocktail parties talking about soap scum, mold and mildew. And you know, -
Michael LeBlanc 04:10
You know, I just used your washroom and like, can I give you my card? Because really, you know, -
Soon Yu 04:15
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I, I judge people at a totally micro-, microscopic level that they've never think about, right? Yeah, so, now, in the process of managing probably the un-sexiest brand in the portfolio, I realized that it didn't matter how honest, like kids, you don't really care how you know, unattractive or out of shape your kid is, you're going to give them the best opportunity for a great education, you know, you feed them, well. You're going to get them off to school every morning. You can do everything you can and, and you can because it's your kid, and I think by having to work on something like toilet bowl cleaners, it taught me the intrinsic reason why people love brand management and that's the sense of ownership that you get from being able to, you know, make decisions that both impact the health of the brand, but also, again, that relationship with the consumers.
Soon Yu 05:14
Then I had a whole bunch of stuff, you know, I said, (inaudible), I learned so much here at Clorox, and in business school, and, you know, a lot of things I probably shouldn't be doing as a consultant. And I kind of wanted to apply that against a real life example, and a crucible, which is, let's do a startup, you know, (inaudible) these ideas, (crossover talk), extra work in a, in a real life case study, which is a startup, and I have done probably seven or eight startups in my life. And I can just say, for the record, most of them failed, a couple were successful, and, -
Michael LeBlanc 05:48
You don't need a lot of them to be successful, right? I mean, -
Soon Yu 05:51
A few, yes. But you know, I mean, if you look at my Wikia profile, it will actually state that I or at least one of the businesses I created was the poster child for web excess, and stupidity. So, I, I actually am personally branded as one of the biggest failures you'll ever meet, Michael, -
Michael LeBlanc 06:13
Is that how you? Is that how you wound up in addition to a Webby Award, you wound up with a DOPE Award? Tell me about the DOPE Award?
Soon Yu 06:19
Well, yeah, we created, that was for when I was working for Chiquita. And we had created, our goal was to take something and as you know, let's say as mundane as bananas, and try to create some real engagement with a younger customer base, because we had been, let's say, you know, our customers have been kind of growing a lot older, and we wanted to reconnect to our younger base.
Soon Yu 06:46
And so, we created a Eat A Chiquita website. And it was very interactive, it really celebrated the idea of our heritage, but also, you know, the health and character of bananas in American lifestyle. And one of the things we did that won a lot of these awards was using a web interactive tool. We let people who recreate one of the most iconic signatures of the Chiquita brand, which is the logo. And so, you know, and then we, for the winning designs, which we had quite a few, we actually changed the logo for about three or four months to all those different designs. So, not only were, (crossover talk), you know, -
Michael LeBlanc 07:31
That's a big deal on the package good world, right? I mean, that's, that's like an (inaudible) you, you guard that with your, with your professional lives, right?
Soon Yu 07:39
Absolutely. And so, the fact that we were allowed to play with it, and it's not only we were allowed to play, but with our customers, and the younger customer base was allowed to sort of recreate it, make it their own and best, some good friction against reimagining it, it really brought the life back to the brand and made it highly relevant with our consumers again, and so that that's why a lot of those awards were won.
Soon Yu 08:05
But just to kind of go, go full-, full circle to why you have me on the program is that kind of led me to the most of my failures led me to the question of why are all these great brands, you know, doing it differently and better than I could do it. And I researched 50 companies that had really burned the status of becoming iconic, you know, they stood the test of time, they were distinctive, they're relevant, and they had longevity and became the standard bearer for that distinctive relevance. And I kind of reversed engineered the intentional strategies that they took to become iconic. And so, it was the strategies, it was the principles, and it was the best practices. And I put that into a book and it was a very successful book for me, it's called "Iconic Advantage". And yeah, -
Michael LeBlanc 08:54
That was your first book, right (crossover talk), second book?
Soon Yu 08:56
Yeah, and the second book was actually based on my experiences from activating the first book after I launched that, you know, a lot of businesses brought me in to help them figure out how they might become more iconic. And one of the first steps we always look at is, is there something unique or distinctive about you, and we call that noticing power? And one of the keys in noticing power is first understand who you are and then what is it about you that is unique or different or special versus the competition?
Michael LeBlanc 09:23
(Crossover talk), and is relevant, right? I mean, back to your consulting days, I would often draw a matrix to say, well, this is differentiation. And this is relevancy and you don't want to be in the really different but irrelevant category, right? So, you got to watch out for that, right?
Soon Yu 09:38
You nailed it, (inaudible). So, we talked about the first one is distinction, but don't be different, just for different sake. The second quality that you need, there's three qualities. The second quality is what we call staying power, and it's related to relevance. It's actually, are you relevant yesterday, are you relevant today, and will you be relevant 100 years from now and that that's the whole idea of staying power in terms of relevance. And the last is just getting universal recognition for that distinctive relevance. And you can, you know, being distinctive, is not enough, whatever that distinction is, it has to be relevant. And the, the, the trick or not the trick, but the, the key goal is to have longevity with that, because if you don't, -
Michael LeBlanc 10:19
Well that's the hard part, right? Because, you know, you, you wind up creating differentiation, but then, you know, it gets adapted quickly and then it becomes table stakes. Now you've, you've created something that's not differentiated anymore, the market or competitors. So, the world has caught up to you and now you got to keep going, right? It's very iterative process. Yeah, -
Soon Yu 10:35
I should have interviewed you to write the book, you, you nailed it man, you-, you-, you've exactly summarized the entire book it is all about exactly what you just said. And by the way, (inaudible) not idea of distinction, part of it is, if you have something distinctive that you own, it's great to encapsulate it and embody it in a signature element, let me give you a simple example.
Soon Yu 10:56
You know, Corona is a great beer and it's distinctive for a couple reasons, but one of the most distinctive parts of it. And in fact, Corona is kind of naked without it is the lime in the neck. Because with the lime in the neck does it is a signature element for the brand that brings you brings the consumer back to the idea that this is your vacation beer, this is your, you know, beach beer, and so, Corona is kind of naked without that signature element.
Soon Yu 11:23
You know, the Air Max from Nike, you know, it always has that little pocket of air, you know, because that pocket of air will never lose it's buoyancy, whereas most trainers lose about 40% of their support. And so, you know, these are ideas, signature elements. And, and, and one of the most powerful types of signature elements is the idea of a signature experience. And when I started to look at the signature experiences, the world was going seamless, and going frictionless and trying to kind of reduce the time you spend, -
Michael LeBlanc 11:54
That was the mantra, or continues to be the mantra, that continues to be the mantra, which is why I was so interested to dive into your book, you know, that, that part about friction. So, the, the book is just so we don't leave our listeners behind the book is "Friction: Adding Value By Making People Work For It". Now it's your second book, as you said. Talk about or-, your, your kind of introducing, you're getting to the origin story of the book. But you know what, what compelled you to take your first book to the next level was that a natural progression for you?
Soon Yu 12:23
It wasn't planned, it was one of the things where I was helping a lot of the clients kind of develop great signature elements for their brand distinction. And in the process of doing that, I realized that to do it well required friction, it required you to make your customers pause, stop, think, sometimes consider and actually actively make a yes or no choice. Oftentimes, exhibiting or, or exerting a little bit of sweat and sweat equity, in order to get to the place where the signature experience made you remember them, made you made them look forward too, too experience again
Soon Yu 13:11
I will give you a simple example that most it is about a signature experience. But it's also the idea of what is good friction and what is bad friction. So, let's take the idea of opening a package and I'm going to share a bad friction example. And I'll share a good friction example. So, let's you and I think, Okay, here's a product, USB, a USB flash drive that you know, maybe I don't know if two gigabytes right. And when we purchase it, we go to a Best Buy or buy it on Amazon and it arrives and it is inside a huge about 10x the size of the little flash drive, plastic clamshell, we have to take our scissors, we have to cut it open. And even then it's so well melded together that we have to use our fingernails and, and fingers to try to pry it open. And the prod-, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 14:03
It's designed for loss prevention, right. It's designed for loss prevention in a physical store, right? It's like the old C-, the old CDs, right? Remember the old CDs it comes with a massive case, -
Soon Yu 14:12
How about friction, like bad friction, right? So, but there's another company that actually makes you take more than two minutes. Oftentimes, I think the average in terms of spending time trying to unpack their product is 20 to 30 minutes, or you're thinking that, what, you're taking 20-30 minutes out of my life to unpack your stupid product.
Soon Yu 14:34
Well, during Christmas, my son got his Apple Watch and the 20 or 30 minutes it took him to unpackage that, to set it up, to put his name in it to customize it, to choose a color sche-, scheme to choose, you know, different types of screen designs before it is fully set up. Those are probably the 30 best minutes of Christmas for him, okay and you know, I always ask, even when I doing a keynote, I always ask audience, how many people bought an apple product? How many of you those that have the hands up, which is 99% of the audience have actually kept one of the packages? Not a single hand goes down. And then I said, Okay, well, how many have kept two? How many kept three? I've gotten up to where somebody had 18 packages. So, Michael, 18 packages, I said, What do you do with 18 packages, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 15:20
I probably have some, I probably have half that, at least half that many here. I mean, it's, it's a fascinating observation. I mean it gets to this point of a-, another moment of truth in the buy-, you know, I think like a retailer, it's another moment of truth in the buying purchase process, right? Not only you made a couple of decisions, you've made the decision to buy it, it arrives, and then that i,- that experience is. is very important, right?
Soon Yu 15:42
You give another example that's really interesting on, on the on a different context, I think was tax software. But it's the this idea of benevolent deception. In other words, let's put some speed bumps in here to slow things down, and I, I call it sometimes. Have you heard the term soak time? Let me understand what's happening. So, let's put some speed bumps in the way Is that Is that another, you know, there are two sides of the same coin, so to speak. But is that talk about that for a bit?
Soon Yu 15:42
It's one of the most critic-, and so the way Apple looked at it is, you know, what, this is about a treasure and the treasure chest, and it's the idea of trying to unlock a treasure chest, it shouldn't be that simple. There should be keys, or should be straps, you know, and then you know, they get to the best part of the treasure, you open up, there's treasure, but then you got to dig a little deeper to find the big, you know, let's call the big emerald, that sort of, you know, buried underneath there somewhere, right. And so, that is a concept that they use to create their packaging. And it requires a lot of effort, time, consideration, sweat to get through those 30 minutes. But those are 30 minutes that people cherish. And I give, -
Soon Yu 16:54
Yeah, well, that's a certain type of deceptive friction, but it is, it's this idea that, you know, there are times where inconveniences actually create greater assurance okay. So, in TurboTax, a lot of times, you know, you put in all your information, and you've probably spent a long time doing that, right? Well, the answers already done for you. And so, you get the (inaudible) instantaneously, but to be commensurate with the effort you put in, you want to feel like, hey, the program itself is considered. It's it is actually, you know, it's not an auto answer, it's actually something where it reflects the effort you put into it, and therefore, it's going to put in the right amount of effort to match that.
Soon Yu 17:43
And so, you they sometimes they've put up the, the, the processing bar, you know, the little time bar, (crossover talk), that goes across the screen, to show you that, hey, they're, they're, they're (crossover talk) checking every single (inaudible) exception for you, right? And, and, you know, because you're different from customer, A, B, or C, you're you know, customer you, you're, you're Michael, right. You know, we're going to just like, like a real tax consultant is going to do, we're going to customize our answer for you. So, those five or 10 seconds that you see are happening, it gives you this sense that, hey, you know, whatever I did previously, it's been put to good use. And whatever answer I'm going to get that's kind of come out of it was actually one that was well considered.
Michael LeBlanc 18:30
It's so interesting, and, and you give lots of great, it's one of the things I love about the book, you give lots of great examples. And by the way, your book reminded me of another interview, another book that's out, Dan Pink's, "The Power of Regret", right? Where it turns the kind of idea in his, in his book, The Power of Regret to the positive, you turn the power of friction, even create the power of friction, which is interesting. What, what are the most, as you draw from the many, many examples from the book, what are the most counterintuitive, most powerful examples that you can share with, with retailers about, you know, put friction, because it is a drive to eliminate friction, you know, at the checkout, eliminate friction everywhere, but give me some counter exa-, counterintuitive examples that really stood out to you?
Soon Yu 19:12
Well, I'll start with one that may be less specific to retail, but it is about building relationships and obviously, part of that is building relationships with your customers. But it's sort of central to the idea that you want to make your customers work for it, right. And I talked about in the chapter of building rapport. building rapport requires actually a certain amount of friction from both parties. You know, rapport is a simplest form a sense of connection.
Soon Yu 19:42
And I talk about the story of Benjamin Franklin. As you know, he was a legislator, a politician, and, and he had a, a another adversary who was on the other side of the political spectrum, who really hated it okay. And he is trying to figure out well, how do I get close to this guy? Well, you know, you kind of go through some now maybe we have a shared interest and so he found a shared interest. The natural reaction on the shared interest might be well, I'm going to do him a favor and, you know, I know he has a shared interest,. So, I'm going to do something related to that shared interest on his behalf and, and something that he'll find favorable, right.
Benjamin, Frank-, Franklin took the opposite tack, he said, you know what, we both like books, we both have incredible libraries. And I also know that he has this one rare book that nobody else has, and I don't have either. And I'm going to ask him to borrow that book, right. And you think what, that's how you're going to get close to somebody. And the adversary guy, he's kind of like, you want to borrow what? And he thought about it, he goes well, one, you like books, okay, that's, that's a form of connection.
But instead of giving me your best book, you're asking for my best book. But hey, that means you actually know that, that is my best book, you know, that, that is a prized possession for me, and you appreciate that. And now I see you in a little bit different light already. And, and a novel the light, well okay, I'm going to lend you the book. And that's what happened, that guy and lended the book to Benjamin Franklin.
Benjamin Franklin borrowed it for a little while, returned it with a note of thanks. And obviously, with some of his thoughts, as if you and I had seen a movie together, and afterwards, we're having a coffee, that's kind of what happened, right? He shared some of his insights about this incredibly rare book. And after that day, they became best buddies and best friend legislators. And you got to think about this. One of the ways to get close to somebody isn't to do a favor for them, it's actually to ask a favor then. Now there is an art to asking for good favors, okay, you can't just randomly ask any favor, -
Michael LeBlanc 21:57
That would be thoughtful as it wasn't your example, right? Very thoughtful, and very, (crossover talk) very in some ways, personal, but an intersection of the personal and professional, -
Soon Yu 22:05
It is so, one of the first thing you want to do is ask for something that might actually flatter the other person in terms of you have something that I either want, something that I need, something that of value, that, boy, if you could give me just a little bit of help on that, or a little bit of assistance there.
Soon Yu 22:24
The second part of it is it would go a long way to help me and improve my lot and make my life better. So, think about this way, something important to that person that they can give without too much effort that would go a long way in making your life different, better or, or changed or impacted in some way. And then what happens is, once they've done this favor, you need to let them know that the favor was not only appreciated, but it led to a positive outcome for you.
Soon Yu 22:54
Because what happens then is all of a sudden, you are now not only part of my consideration set, but I've just invested against your success, and therefore your future success is something that I actually have some ownership over. And so guess what, if you ask for a second favor, kind of related to the first one, I'm definitely going to help you because I already saw the progress on that one. And guess what, you're now part of my universe. And that's what happens when you ask for favors people become vested in you and your success, and their ability to help you achieve that.
Soon Yu 23:29
You know, you know, one of the things I love about being a speaker consultant, is it's very satisfying on a couple levels. One is that, you know, I'm able to help people. But the other thing that I think is so important is this is why, you know, asking for a favor somebody, it sort of hits on this. I like being needed, I like being appreciated. And I think if most people look at it, you know, if they in the right work environment, part of it is that you're helping people but part of it is that you know, you're needed and you know, you want it and you know that your desired, that is as much a I don't want to use the word aphrodisiac, but as much of an inspiration as actually being able to help somebody.
Michael LeBlanc 24:12
You know, like adversity, a little bit is good, too much is very bad. So, how do you, let's step back and understand from your framework, you've got some frameworks in the book, I guess we're also kind of calling back on your, your stint in consulting, but you also worked for some big, some big, big brands, who would of have thought through, you know, everything from product value ladders to all these things, as as retailers and others who are listening kind of unpack their value chain and say, there's some elements that could benefit from friction and some that wouldn't. Is there a model that they could take from your book and kind of apply to help them understand basically, how to apply the principles that you outlined and, and give plentiful examples of in the book?
Soon Yu 24:52
Yeah, so let me give you the sort of the basic outline and the framework and then I'll talk about this idea of adversity and when is too much too much, right. So, it's just a simple ,kind of mnemonic, we really think about the idea of good and bad friction. And the simple definition of friction itself is added effort, investment, consideration, etc., right? The difference between good, bad is that this added extra added effort in investment leads to a bad outcome, that's bad friction.
Soon Yu 25:28
Whereas an added ex-, you know, effort or extension or, or investment, that leads to a good outcome, that's good friction. And to get there, the key with good friction is that it is required to create what I call happy chemicals. This is dopamine, you know, think of it as the reward and anticipation chemical that hits your brain. Oxytocin, that's the one where it's about social connection which is some people call it the love chemical that we feel when we're bonding with people. Serotonin, it's the one where our competitive juices are sort of fired up. And it's the kind of recognition and reward mechanism that gets triggered with serotonin. Endorphin, think of it as sort of the painkiller one, right? Where if you push yourself to a limit that, that kicks in, and it takes over, -
Michael LeBlanc 25:44
A breakthrough, -
Soon Yu 25:46
And the last one I call is adrenaline, okay? And so, you want good friction, because it elicits those happy chemicals. And so when you think about your retail environment, are you actually create an environment that really triggers those happy chemicals. And if you're doing it right, you can actually trigger seven potential virtues, of good virtues that come from good friction. That's everything from engagement, meaning, belonging, rapport, assurance, competence, and exclusivity.
Soon Yu 26:55
And if you put that all in one big sort of things, remember, we highly encourage you to embrace a dose of good friction. Embrace stands for those seven virtues of engagement, meaning, belonging, rapport, assurance, competence, and exclusivity. A dose stands for adrenaline, dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins. So, and when you embrace i those that are good friction, you will get those happy chemicals. And it will lead to those seven virtues. That's the book in a nutshell-,
Michael LeBlanc 27:29
By chapter, actually, that's a book by chapter right, you get a chapter dedicated to basically to, (crossover talk), -
Soon Yu 27:34
And the last thing I want to address to your, your question about this idea of is too much friction, good or bad or too much adversity. And I think the thing with bad friction is, it's, it's more easy to achieve ba-, bad friction than it is good friction, here's why good friction can be a bit fleeting, it can be very much contextual. And you could do something that let's say, you know, you're asking extra effort for somebody, and in the right environment, it's very engaging, they're, they're very much willing to make that investment.
Soon Yu 28:05
But let's say, you know, oftentimes, we have two modes, we have our normal mode, and then we have our stress mode, right. But you know, sometimes we get into that stress mode, where we're just overwhelmed, overloaded? Well, almost any type of good friction you put into somebody that is in their stress mode actually becomes bad friction, just because they don't have the bandwidth to process what you need. They're kind of the fight or flight or fight, or fight or flight right now, kind of mindset.
Soon Yu 28:29
And so, anything you introduce as good friction normally will actually turn into bad friction. So, friction is within context, and so that you just have to think about if I'm adding more effort for my customers that come into my store, or on my website, you know, is it creating the right, happy chemicals? And are they in the right context to be able to receive that good friction, so it does create those happy chemicals? So, that's probably the one thing I'd say about it, you know, you have to think about it's not too much or too little. Is it in the right context?
Michael LeBlanc 29:01
Context, so, that's very, very useful. So, last question for you. I can't have someone of your experience and thoughtfulness on the mic where, where we don't talk a little bit about the amount of friction and what we went through are in some way still going through in the COVID era.
Michael LeBlanc 29:15
What, what are you thinking around consumer behavior, business structures that may have changed structurally as opposed to kind of, you know, accommodation, still a weird time in our life? I asked a lot of people this question, as we think and reflect on the past couple of years. What, what in your mind, if anything, is has changed from your way of thinking or from the way that consumers behave pre-COVID?
Soon Yu 29:36
Yeah, and I would probably think about it on two levels. One is obviously from the consumer customer, but the other is really, staff and employees. And, you know, there's (inaudible) two simple behaviors on both of those audiences, or those populations, they have more options.
Soon Yu 29:55
And part of those options are to not be physically engaged. with you, right, they can be virtually engaged with you. And I'm not saying anything that no one knows you need to be able to provide both options, then you need to think about if you're providing both options, what's the context? And what's the role of each option relative to each other and relative to serving your business model and building your brand? (Crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 30:24
And I don't think, (crossover talk). I don't think we've all figured that out yet, right. I talked to a lot of people, (crossover talk), -
Soon Yu 30:27
No, I don't think so. But I have some thoughts on at least a couple of these. (inaudible). So, on, on the employee part, I actually think that you know, this hybrid work is, I, I just think that, that is probably going to become the norm, if it's not the norm already. Just because if, if one company provides hybrid and another doesn't, over time, okay, as people come into the marketplace, they're going to probably veer a little more towards having that flexibility.
Soon Yu 30:55
Okay, so you need to assume that at some point, you're probably going to have to have that hybrid model. And then, then I think the question needs to be, what is the reason people could benefit from being together physically? What are those situations? And are you thinking about not forcing people to go back work, but making it kind of compelling to want to actually be physically back at work, because I don't think being fully virtue is actually healthy. And I don't think actually being full-, fully physical is actually realistic. So, this idea of hybrid is here to stay. And if it is hybrid, then what is the role that you design?
Soon Yu 31:37
And so, people that are innovating a lot on the virtual workspace and you know, Slack and all these, you know, apps that are coming out? I think there needs to be a whole set of innovation about innovating in person work, what would actually make me super interested to come in? What are the, you know, you know, is this company, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 31:55
And where, right? Is it is it still the office, is it does it need to be the same physical environment, which sometimes creates friction for people, right, we call that a (inaudible), particularly to where you are, and where I am in Toronto, you know, commutes are pretty evil, right?
Soon Yu 32:03
It definitely creates friction, (crossover talk), Is that a time when people actually get together and (inaudible)? Is it a time where people get together and actually physically present ideas to each other and have a discourse that you really can't have in a zoom environment like where, you know, 20 people are trying to, you know, is it in an environment where, quite frankly, you're required to go to lunch with people you don't know that? Well, I'll like, and we'll pay for it? What, what, you know, and then all sudden, you're building a rapport and network, you know, is this a time where, you know, we encourage people, we're going to work on culture or we're going to, you know, live our values, we're going to, you know, we're going to be training, what is it, that a (inaudible) can feel compel people to think of, of FOMO fear of missing out, it's not that they will force me to come back. I love coming into work.
Soon Yu 32:52
And in fact, I miss coming to work, because so many cool things are happening. And, and so, you just have to think, what's the role of in person work? And how do we innovate in a way that actually creates a (inaudible) people are compelled to want to come? I think the same principle is related to the physical store environment, you know, it shouldn't just be an option because hey, it was on my way to work or on my way home. Or you know, I was just happened to be at the mall. And so, while you know, I kind of inadvertently ended up at your store, you have to think about what are the compelling reasons to get people to come physically back into your store that then touches on those happy chemicals?
Michael LeBlanc 33:33
Well, the book is "Friction: Adding Value By Making People Work For It". Soon, now can people, that's available today, I'll put links in the show notes. How can people get in touch with you or your LinkedIn person? Or what's the best way to reach out to you if they have questions or want to chat and maybe even talk about to your speaking gigs and all that great stuff?
Soon Yu 33:51
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I, I love working with people. And you know, if you just want to talk to me, I'm happy to do that. If you want to hire me, of course, I'm happy for that too. And, and easiest way to get a hold of me is you can just go to my website, it's just my name Soon. S-O-O-N-Y-U dot com. That's probably the easiest. But of course, I am probably the only Soon Yu on LinkedIn also. And so yeah, and if you type in Soon Yu on Google, you'll get one of my links somewhere, then you should be fine. But yeah, I thank you so much, Michael, for so many thoughtful questions. And, and I love talking about what you're what you're so passionate about. And I think we can nerd out on this for many hours. So, this has been fun.
Michael LeBlanc 34:29
You know, this has been a real treat. It's been great to chit and chat with you. It's great book, I recommend it to anybody who is anywhere remotely interested in what we've had to say. But in general, I think it's a great to a great read and congratulations, and, and thanks for joining me on the podcast and I wish you safe travels and continued success.
Soon Yu 34:47
Thank you so much, Michael.
Michael LeBlanc 34:48
Thanks for tuning in to this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure and click and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically, twice a week.
Michael LeBlanc 35:00
And check out my other retail industry media properties, the Remarkable Retail podcast, Conversations with CommerceNext podcast and The Food Professor podcast with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois.
Michael LeBlanc 35:09
Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my all new YouTube barbecue show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week. I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company and Maven Media.
And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co.
Have a safe week everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
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