Today I am thrilled to be sharing a full episode from the second season of my Conversations with CommerceNext podcast featuring an interview with Sally Pofcher, a retail strategy expert and proven creator of growth and brand leadership. From McKinsey to Gap Inc. and beyond, Sally stands on a full and bright career at the forefront of innovative retail brands. She calls on her experience as a seasoned strategist, operator and mother as she walks us through her role as CEO, turning around the Portland based, beloved children’s fashion brand Hanna Andersson.
Welcome to the The Voice of Retail , I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Today I am thrilled to be sharing a full episode from the second season of my Conversations with CommerceNext podcast featuring an interview with Sally Pofcher, a retail strategy expert and proven creator of growth and brand leadership.
From McKinsey to Gap Inc. and beyond, Sally stands on a full and bright career at the forefront of innovative retail brands. She calls on her experience as a seasoned strategist, operator and mother as she walks us through her role as CEO, turning around the Portland based, beloved children’s fashion brand Hanna Andersson.
Sally talks with my Conversations with CommerceNext co-host Veronika Sonsev and me about reaffirming brand values, strengthening company culture in changing and challenging times and - perhaps most importantly - the importance of being human.
I launched the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast with my U.S. based partners to meet the top practitioners and thought leaders in the DTC & eCommerce marketing space, and explore both their tradecraft and share the learnings from their career journeys. Let's listen in now as Veronica kicks off our conversation. Be sure and subscribe on Apple, Spotify and all the major podcasting platforms. Season Two is presented by our friends at Bloomreach.
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven’t already, be sure and click subscribe on your favourite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week, and check out my other retail industry media properties; the Remarkable Retail podcast, the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and the Food Professor podcast. Last but not least, if you are into BBQ, check out my all new YouTube barbecue show, Last Request Barbeque, with new episodes each and every week!
I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company & Maven Media, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co! Have a safe week everyone!
Sally is CEO of Hanna Andersson, and a proven builder of growth brands. She was an Operating Partner at L Catterton, a leading consumer growth private equity firm, where she advised on deal evaluation and portfolio company performance in the Growth Fund, and was Board Director for multiple businesses, including Sweaty Betty.
Previously, Sally served on the Boards of Claire's and Pet Retail Brands. She was Board Chairman and Chief Executive Officer at PaperSource, where she led 8 years of double-digit sales and profit growth, as well as a successful investor transition. She held prior leadership roles as SVP of Strategy and Business Development at The Gap and a Partner at McKinsey and Company.
Sally holds a Masters in Business Administration from Kellogg (Northwestern University) and an undergraduate degree from Georgetown University.
Sally is involved in numerous community initiatives, including being on the Board and Executive Committee of Marwen, Co-Chair of New Trier Parent Association, and past position on the Board of the Boys and Girls Club of San Francisco. She is a member of Young Presidents' Organization.
Sally has 20+ years of experience building digital/omni-channel consumer experiences and delivering great results thru a combination of brand building, clear strategy, and disciplined execution. Most importantly, Sally is an authentic leader able to build and empower great teams that collaborate. In addition, Sally is a creative thinker who shapes the voice and aesthetic of brands and products.
ABOUT Veronika
Veronika Sonsev is the Co-Founder of CommerceNext. She also leads the retail practice for Chameleon Collective and is a contributor for Forbes on how to grow retail and ecommerce in the age of Amazon. Having spent the last 10+ years working with some of the largest retailers and direct-to-consumer brands, Veronika has intimate knowledge of the challenges facing retail and ecommerce today. She is also an advocate for women in business and founded the global non-profit mBolden, which is now part of SheRunsit.
Michael LeBlanc 00:04
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 00:10
Today I'm thrilled to be sharing a full episode from the second season of my Conversations with CommerceNext podcast featuring an interview with Sally Pofcher, a retail strategy expert and proven creator of growth and brand leadership.
Michael LeBlanc 00:22
From McKinsey to Gap Inc. and beyond, Sally stands on a full and bright career at the forefront of innovative retail brands. She calls on her experience as a seasoned strategist, operator and mother as she walks us through her role as CEO turning around the Portland based, beloved children's fashion brand, Hanna Andersson.
Michael LeBlanc 00:32
Sally talks with my Conversations with CommerceNext co-host, Veronika Sonsev and myself about reaffirming brand values strengthening company culture in changing and challenging times and - perhaps most importantly - the importance of being human.
Michael LeBlanc 00:52
I launched the Conversations with CommerceNext podcasts with my U.S. based partners to meet the top practitioners and thought leaders in the DTC and eCommerce marketing space and explore both their tradecraft and share the learnings from their career journeys.
Let's listen in now as Veronika kicks off our conversation. And be sure and subscribe to my Conversation with CommerceNext podcast on Apple, Spotify, all the major platforms.
Veronika Sonsev 01:15
Well, welcome to Conversations with CommerceNext. Sally, you are leading the turnaround for a much loved children's brand. We're super excited to have you on the podcast to learn a little bit more about Hanna Andersson, and of course, your own career journey.
Sally Pofcher 01:30
Well, thank you. I'm delighted to be here.
Veronika Sonsev 01:32
And I'm joined here with the producer and co-host of Conversations with CommerceNext, Michael LeBlanc.
Michael LeBlanc 01:38
Hi, Sally, how are you today?
Sally Pofcher 01:40
Terrific.
Michael LeBlanc 01:41
Now, where are we finding you today? What part of the world are you joining us from?
Sally Pofcher 01:45
I am joining you from Chicago which is not the headquarters of Hannah Andersson, which is in Portland, Oregon.
Michael LeBlanc 01:51
Ah, I love Chicago. And of course, a-, as Veronika and Scott like to kid me about, I always try to find some kernel of Canadian, and Canadian in everything. I'm here in Toronto. And I was looking through your background and I see you were on the board of a Canadian Pet Valu, right?
Sally Pofcher 02:07
That is correct.
Michael LeBlanc 02:08
Fantastic.
Sally Pofcher 02:09
That is correct, a great pet retailer. And I think we're probably sharing snowdrifts right now. I mean I think the, the weather is kindred.
Michael LeBlanc 02:17
The weather is kindred and the cities are kindred, Toronto and Chicago, you know, they feel a lot of like so anyway, welcome. Great to meet you and I am looking forward to the conversation.
Veronika Sonsev 02:24
Well, Sally, you have had a very interesting career trajectory, you essentially started your career as a consultant, advising large retailers on growth strategies. Then you moved to an in-house executive strategy role at Gap Inc., and then into the CEO seat, first at Paper Source and now at Hanna Andersson, would you consider this a traditional career path for a CEO?
Sally Pofcher 02:48
Well, I don't know what makes traditional in a, in a, an apparel or retail CEO. And I couldn't tell you whether they're like statistically outsized numbers and I think traditionally, retail, CEOs have come out of the merchant side of the house or the merchant or store ops and with a particular bias towards, you know, product or curation of assortment was at the core of, of what merchandising and, and retailers were about. And I think that had reached challenges over the year where there are a number of CEOs that came out of the merchandising side may not have had the full suite of experiences in what are really complicated businesses.
Sally Pofcher 03:26
I mean, retail businesses always have the inventory working capital complexity of managing inventory in dispersed locations, and predicting trends of what people will buy and, and what to do with obsolescence of that in managing dispersed employee basis and all of the things that go on with people and treatment of people, and changing state roles and all of that, and supply chains in just the financial sophistication of managing a P&L on a balance sheet, and changing digital and wholesale channels. So, it's a hard gig.
Sally Pofcher 04:03
And I think there are rare phenomenon like Mickey Drexler at the Gap during that era that come out of merchandising, and, and show an acumen for all of that. But I think there are plenty of executives that come out of different backgrounds, I think. I, I don't know the stats, but I don't think it's a you know, a large number statistically that are former strategists, but I personally feel like it's a great background. And, I suspect that it is a large part of even though nobody was searching for a strategist to go, you know, like your first job in retail as a consultant is usually someone knocks you for being a consultant. But for me, I think it was great preparation because the work, you know, over a decade at McKinsey that I had (inaudible) is the foundation for, -
Michael LeBlanc 04:50
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 04:50
How I know how to approach not just setting a strategy, but every part of the function. So, to me, it was a great experience and you see people like Margo Georgiadis at Ancestry, or Meg Whitman at eBay and Hewlett Packard or Mike George at QVC. They're, they're great leaders and this is just a small subset, you know, out in some of the consumer sectors. So, I think it's a really good background, but there are many good backgrounds.
Veronika Sonsev 05:16
So, it sounds like that, that strategy background really kind of gave you an opportunity to look at all parts of the retail business, which is what prepared you to step into the CEO seat and really have a, a sense of how the whole organization needs to function together. That, is that a fair assessment?
Sally Pofcher 05:32
I think that's one part of it. I mean, I, I spent really formative, you know, almost 10 years at McKinsey. So, for me, it was the strategy, but it was also being in a place where the values of the caliber of people you're working with, like the idea of who you hire, who you work with, and how you talk to each other. I mean, at McKinsey, there's something called the obligation to dissent.
Sally Pofcher 05:54
And so, having people help you with different ideas, or understanding the implications of your ideas, gets it out on the table. And it's actually not that, it's not as common as I would have thought, walking out of that into a, an environment, like the Gap, having people speak, not without agenda, but with less agenda about like, hey, that's an idea. But here's the consequence of it. What, how do we work that out? So, that kind of people set of values, and how people treat each other. That was to me very deeply steeped in what I saw at McKinsey between people, but also observing different leaders in how they lead companies, and how they treated each other and what things worked better or not. So, that was a big part of it that was different. Yes, I mean, I probably spent more of my time on growth projects.
Sally Pofcher 06:44
So, I spent more time thinking about strategies of how to rejuvenate a brand that has some old bones that are right, but are relevant, or registering with new consumers or grow-, consumers growing into that age group. So, thinking about how brands regenerate and rejuvenate themselves in the business system issues behind it. So, it helped me look at all the I don't want to use a dry term, like your key performance indicators by every function.
Sally Pofcher 07:09
But it helped me kind of focus on how do you think through systematically how to drive growth, what gets in the way of aligning people in organizations and capabilities behind it. And then what are the other things you have to look at, even if I'm not the head of distribution, I know which kind of key metrics to look at, to know whether we're doing better and how to analyze, draw conclusions, communicate, like those foundational skills for being pretty good. And we saw things that didn't work either, like lots of presentations that didn't go anywhere. So, that's pretty galvanizing too.
Veronika Sonsev 07:43
Definitely, I can see that there will be so many, I, I always could of as a former consultant, I always say like seeing things across a portfolio company helps you kind of learn faster, and you kind of get a sense of your, your, you, you have a chance to try a lot of different things. So, you have a, a sense just like you can iterate quicker, because you see what's happening, -
Sally Pofcher 07:55
Yeah, yeah.
Veronika Sonsev 07:57
What's not working.
Sally Pofcher 08:04
Yeah, at least you're practiced in solving problems, which is we're constantly not knowing the exact problem that we're solving. But it's more like, do you know how to approach a problem, gather people around it, and break it down and push through it?
Veronika Sonsev 08:19
For those who may not be familiar with Hanna Andersson. I want to kind of introduce them to the brand. And I'd love it, If you could give us a brief overview of your product and what the brand stands for. I know you're really passionate about it.
Sally Pofcher 08:31
Yeah, yeah. So, Hanna has, has been around since 1983, so almost 40 years. So, I, I just as context, I'm the mother of two daughters in college and one in fourth grade. So, I currently have a daughter that's wearing lots of Hanna pajamas. And then I have 10 and12 year older daughters that had Hanna's almost that feel like of another era Hanna has been around for a while.
Sally Pofcher 08:54
And if I just back it up a bit to the beginning, because what it was in the beginning is a lot about what it is today. So, Hanna was founded in 83 by this woman, Gun Denhart, who is a Swedish woman who came to the Pacific Northwest, and was looking for the clothes that were like her Scandinavian roots, what she had grown up with how she wanted to raise her kids, and didn't find them.
Sally Pofcher 09:17
So, she started the company, like many things, a woman that didn't find what she needed, started a company, and what's relevant to me and my kids are a quarter Swedish. So, I'm a big, you know, like I'm a big believer and I studied in Denmark. So, I really have no Scandinavian blood myself, but I'm so deeply bought in. I'm also five feet tall. So, I, there's no question that I'm not Scandinavian, but I love everything about it.
Sally Pofcher 09:39
And so, what, what I love about the, the value set that I think is true to Hanna, and then so relevant today is and you look at the Scandinavian countries are some of the happiest countries in the world. And there are a set of things that I think relate to that. There are all these family values around if you can say hygge, you know, like th,- this term. Which is spelled H Y G G E, but it's the idea of cozy familiness, things around how people gather and spend quality time together. Open-air living, you know, the no bad weather, only bad clothes, and a lot about how raising kids with autonomy and sort of celebrating that childhood, a lot of inter-connectivity about raising kids and protecting that, that independence of childhood. So, a lot of these things that, you know, in countries with a lot of darkness, there is a lot of happiness.
Sally Pofcher 10:30
So, I think that the Scandinavian values where you go, like, what's that got to do with clothing? Well, that whole idea of clothes that are made for play that are really comfortable, the kids are free, they're pretty timeless silhouettes, but they are fully like the other part of Scandinavian culture is this attention to design detail.
Sally Pofcher 10:48
So, if you think of all the Design Within Reach brands, the Arne Ja-, ya-, Jacobsen, Poul Henningsen lights, these classic iconic shapes. In clothing, the simplicity of the silhouette, but the attention to the details and things that are made to last is really at the core of these clothes. And that roots back to, these whole sustainability set of values and, and, and for hygge. Scandinavians, conservation of resources, few things handed down is sort of at the core of that value set.
Sally Pofcher 11:18
So, Gun set about making clothes for her kids that were sustainably made, that were made for play, and that really were championing childhood. So, we sort of talk about our mission to outfit the adventure of childhood in the adventure of childhood being inclusive of the adventure that is the adventure for us as parents and family members.
Sally Pofcher 11:36
And we sell sleepwear, and we sell kids apparel and so we really outfit a baby anywhere from newborn to you know, our sizes go up to what is 150. And depending on the size of your, your child, that could be a, 14 year old that could be a 10 year old. And we have adult family matching pajamas. For many of, many, you know, holidays, and I'll talk more about it. But so, what makes our clothing special is, is, is really if you think about what you pr-, people really connect Hanna, like I can think back in my hands go like this, when I think of my daughter's clothing that are you know, 22 years old, like the haft of the cotton. What I didn't know, which is like why did, why did my kids like those clothes, I always thought it was so (inaudible), I never wanted to, I could always hand them down to someone else. So, I have a, like a touch memory of them.
Sally Pofcher 12:28
But it's really all these other details, which my daughter would probably my younger daughter would evangelize about the underwear. And it turns out lots of kids would make testimonials on the underwear because all of the elastic is an encased seam. All of the seams on the pajamas are enclosed and flat-locked, all of the cotton is triple combed. And so, it's a there's a reason why kids that are really sensitive, don't feel anything on their skin. And so, there's just so many smaller details that I didn't ever even know about but it's, why kids are wearing their pajamas all day, like my daughter keeps wanting to wear them to school.
Sally Pofcher 13:02
So, there's just a lot of things about the product, if I go back 40 years to like her principles. I mean, this clothing was made out of a green cotton you know, before anyone was talking about sustainability. That really was trailblazing and so today, you know, we have GOTS certified cotton. GOTS means that every aspect of your system has to be adhering to certain practices, you can see organic cotton in mass channels. And it may or may not be great cotton, it may not be produced in fair trade ways. You know, there's a lot of attention to every step of that process. And we think the product in its best incarnation, you know, just looks great on kids and kids can put it on themselves and feel great.
Sally Pofcher 13:44
So, obviously, I just waxed on for a very long time. But there's lots of things, (crossover talk). -
Michael LeBlanc 13:48
I love the product,
Sally Pofcher 13:49
When you go, it's outdated and yet it's absolutely perfect on the spot for where we are today. And if we just lived through a pandemic, and are still through the hopefully the end stages of that, where we've had our kids inside, and we're fighting to keep them off of screens, we all know that outdoor living and being cozy inside and kids feeling good in their skin, is you know, at the roots of what we want this to be about.
Michael LeBlanc 14:11
Well for a retail strategist so, you clearly have a love of product, I mean that comes out, -
Sally Pofcher 14:15
I do, I do. (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 14:16
It, it really comes out, let's speak just a little bit again for the audience may not know or not know enough about you how you go to market. So, talk, talk a little bit about, you've given us a nice eloquent overview of the product. I want to talk a little bit more about that. But tell, talk a little bit how you go to market, where you can be found, where you trade, just a, a little bit of that kind of information.
Sally Pofcher 14:36
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's really simple hannaandersson.com. And that's simpler and, more simple than it's been in the past because Hanna had its own stores in the United States and we closed all of our stores in the early part of the pandemic, and we have not reopened them. And we have had, you know, a great deal of success. You know we had some dislocation of helping our customers find that. There's been such a colossal shift to shopping online that has been accelerated in the pandemic and even more true of millennial moms. And so, we, we have a lot of opportunity to make our experience online even better, -
Michael LeBlanc 15:04
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 15:17
And connect with new customers in the social forums where new moms learn about products but at this point, Hanna Andersson is 100% distributed online through our own channel.
Michael LeBlanc 15:30
All right and you ship, I noticed you ship internationally as well, right? Do you ship to and do you ship to Canada for example? Do you ship around the world is, talk, talk a bit about that?
Sally Pofcher 15:38
We do, (crossover talk), we have you know, we work with a partner to facilitate not the best expression what will be a continually improving expression of the Hanna brand for international markets. And that is one of our biggest focus areas forward.
Michael LeBlanc 15:51
If you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure and hit that subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform so you don't miss another great episode. We'll be right back with our interview with Sally Pofcher from Hanna Andersson, right after this message.
Michael LeBlanc 16:03
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Michael LeBlanc 16:45
Let's take a step back and talk about your tradecraft. So, you know, as I listened to you remind me of another fellow ex-McKinsey strategist, Hubert Joly, who went in and you know, wrote a great book and of course, did some great work at, at Best Buy. Let's talk about the work you're undertaking at the, at the business system, -
Sally Pofcher 17:03
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 17:04
as you call it the business value system level. So, 30, 40, year old brand, you've been brought on board, you're obviously a, a change agent, you're coming on to take that business to different places. So, talk about, you know, when you first get there, you obviously have a system honed by years of doing this and kind of breaking down issues and opportunities. Just walk us through a little bit about how you're approaching what and where the business is going and where it was? You talked about closing stores. But just give us a sense of your, the tradecraft about how at your level, you walk into a business and say, this is what I need to do with it and when.
Sally Pofcher 17:37
Yeah, well I joined Hanna in September of 2020. So, relatively recently, and in a state of more than usual turmoil, and some amount of that very acute, like many retail businesses to COVID, pandemic specific, you know, nobody has worked in the offices of Hanna since March, -
Michael LeBlanc 17:59
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 18:00
Of 2020, closing all stores, the disruption of the supply chain, we produced quite a lot in India and Peru who have been massively disrupted. And but also on the heels of other disruptions in terms of a number of years where there are a couple of, you know, sort of colossal events like an ERP Implementation, a ransomware attack that really got in the way, -
Michael LeBlanc 18:21
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 18:22
Of visibility into product, like, if you can't ship suddenly, you actually don't ship, -
Michael LeBlanc 18:27
Right.
Sally Pofcher 18:28
Everybody's frustrated with the customer experience, and then you don't know what you would have sold. So, you can't plan the next year and these things happened almost two years apart. And so it, it almost disrupts four years of a clear line of visibility into what's the right offer for com-, customers, how do we really put something out there, get feedback and refine it? So,
Michael LeBlanc 18:49
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 18:50
There was, there is a, there was a series of opportunities, both in terms of starting at the foundation of people, culture, how, how we together do something? I mean, there's a series of things you do as any CEO, in any company, like what path are we going to take? What's the right strategy forward? Do we have the people around it and how we set a plan?
Michael LeBlanc 19:09
Do we have enough ca-, do we have enough cash flow, right? I mean, it's, it's (crossover talk),
Sally Pofcher 19:13
Well, I have the benefit and Hanna has the benefit of you know, really steady partnership in the private equity firm that is behind it. And so there, what it wasn't, as if there was not any view of like, here are the truths behind the brand like through this there have continued to be great Hanna brands loved. So, Net Promoter Scores like the brand has had high regard even with these disruptions so there is still a, a you know, like, a healthy heartbeat, you know, you could be sitting, -
Michael LeBlanc 19:44
Right.
Sally Pofcher 19:45
Here, things going on and yet the, the patient is still like, yeah, -
Michael LeBlanc 19:48
Yeah, yeah.
Sally Pofcher 19:50
They're, they're tremendously talented and committed people and there are people also that have been at the brand that started with Gun, back in the day when you were, they were taking envelopes with dollar bills to get you to send a catalog. There are, particularly this set of women that I call the keepers of the flame, never have wavered on protecting the product quality, there may be moments where you might not like a pattern that was brought out for sure. But there was no moment where anyone compromised on the quality of the product and the make of the product. So, throughout this, even if we were not shipping it on time, or we had moments where the graphic T-shirts had designs that might not have looked as sharp as they could have, there was certainly no compromise on the quality.
Michael LeBlanc 20:32
So, good bones, (crossover talk) was a business with really good bones, solid brand, -
Sally Pofcher 20:36
Really good bones, but in need of kind of, organizing leadership that connected people to the roles and you know, so a lot of the things, you know, we're right away about reaffirming the brand, like what who we are all based in the truths that were already there. But getting clearer on that and sort of cutting out the clutter of, you know, there's been a lot of discounting that has been a feature of our function of, you know, having the wrong inventory in the wrong places, -
Michael LeBlanc 21:05
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 21:06
because it was, didn't arrive in time and the wrong things were getting marked down. So, stabilizing that really refocusing, reconnecting the product team. And we brought in a lot of new design talent, and under tremendous product, existing product leadership and product team members, and changed a lot about how we create new product and the product that we've brought forward since then, even since summer of 20, no summer of 21.
Michael LeBlanc 21:37
I know the time just compresses, right?
Sally Pofcher 21:39
I know.
Michael LeBlanc 21:40
20, 21, 22.
Sally Pofcher 21:41
Yeah, yeah, we've just had really tremendous response to that. And so, continuing to (inaudible) the product, we've really built a marketing team. I mean, we if, for a brand that we talk about Hanna as a brand but Hanna has not been a company that's been brand led with marketers to help codify how you tell, that story. But also, people find out a brand's about brands totally differently than they used to. I mean, they're, -like telling a story on social media platforms, finding audiences, having influencers evangelize about you, it's just a different craft than marketing was for me 20 years ago than it was 10 years ago, and even five years ago, so like, bringing in the capabilities to both creatively and kind of in from a performance marketing craft, -
Michael LeBlanc 22:30
Tell the Hanna story, find new customers. You know, we've got at, at this point, you know, more than a half a million new customers discovering us. But you know, the baby market every year new moms are born and every year, mom's sort of age out. And so, we have this, you know, leaky bucket where we still have a really low awareness level, and we need to keep finding new people.
Sally Pofcher 22:49
So, again, what we do like we took a year, like building a marketing team. And now we're you know, we're in the process of revitalizing and bringing in different talent to help us go from having built a functioning good website, you know, where there's work that it takes to have Apple Pay, Afterpay, (crossover talk), all of these platforms for reviews and uploading social photos.
Sally Pofcher 23:13
But there's a lot more we can do in terms of having it being inspiring and engaging, and frictionless. And so, working through all the things about our site speed and how people add things and how they respond to the way we show things. There's just quite a lot we can do to make it better. But we've been on that journey.
Sally Pofcher 23:30
And then the back of the operations, if we think of the things have gotten in customers way in terms of just getting a package in a timely manner, 2021 wasn't really the easiest year to get those things to be much better, because, -
Michael LeBlanc 23:43
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 23:44
We were working with this well known, you know, containers that cost 10 times as much in air freight that's stuck, -
Michael LeBlanc 23:51
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 23:52
Also, in ground transportation here and we had moments with FedEx where they weren't picking up express shipping. And we had hiring challenges in markets like Louisville where every distribution center is. So, we had a lot to do to, -
Michael LeBlanc 23:54
You had a lot of head-wind, you had a lot of head-winds, (crossover talk), over and over and above the business.
Sally Pofcher 24:10
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 24:11
Business challenge. (crossover talk)
Sally Pofcher 24:12
It was not frictionless, but what we did do, was set goals and make progress on things. So, they're better and we know where we need to go. And then as a company and a culture, we have a we had a lot to do and we have a lot to do like we've been working remote for a long time, which for some people is great, but it is, I think from a business continuity standpoint, like there have been marvelous learnings about how you can design a product line and see the images and line up on those things on screen.
Sally Pofcher 24:44
But in terms of connection and fun and cultural adherence to each other. I just think it's it over time, it, it's, it's not as connecting. And the few times I've been in the office and we've been together I mean, I think the highlight of the year for many of us is we went to the warehouse and just in Louisville and we picked product and we were together.
Michael LeBlanc 25:06
You were together, yeah, -
Sally Pofcher 25:07
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 25:08
I mean (crossover talk) when I talked to CEOs, they, they rank productivity like an eight or nine out of 10. But all those other cultural things around and e-, even, you know, a-, att-, attention, attach-, attachment to the brand, those, those needed a bunch of work.
Veronika Sonsev 25:22
Sally, we, we love to talk about kind of lessons that people learned in their career journey. We feel like, you know, our audiences are a lot of retail and eCommerce executives. You had a very impressive career, talk about the mistakes you've made, the lessons you've learned, and what advice you have for people who want to follow a similar career journey.
Sally Pofcher 25:43
You know, it's, I, I can almost model this a little bit in that I've got two very different daughters, one who's graduating from college right now and the other one who's a sophomore, and they both kind of like consumer retail businesses. And they're both, I think, marvelous, and different people. So, there's lots of different talents coming into retail, and there's lots of good places.
Sally Pofcher 26:00
So, I'm only one example of what people do. For me, I, if in that, the my, advanced age, I reflect on the good fortune, I had to work at McKinsey. Even more than I realized when I was there, as this foundation of values and competency that I didn't kno-, I didn't know, I didn't know, right? And so, you know, when you when we reference back, why strategy about a good background, like McKinsey was a really good background for me.
Sally Pofcher 26:29
Maybe strategy, but partly just this excellence in values, I happen to work with extraordinary people who I saw exhibit amazing people values, values. I never, as a woman, as a mom, I had two kids while I was there as a developing intellectual problem solver and leader, I just was incredibly mentored, I learned how to structure problems and assert myself and be wrong and that was great and learned. So, it's a, an aggressive apprenticeship process.
Sally Pofcher 27:02
I also got to see a lot of leaders and companies in their strengths and their dysfunctions to see kind of what gets in the way of people really wanting to do something like how do you get someone motivated to change? Or what, what's the difference between a presentation that says, if you move this lever by this amount, you could be this much better? Which is the most annoying chart to receive from a consultant because we all know as operators, like, yeah, okay, -
Michael LeBlanc 27:28
As it was that easy, yeah.
Sally Pofcher 27:29
So how do we do that, you know, -
Veronika Sonsev 27:30
So, what sets us apart like a, a good execu-, like someone who's succeeding versus someone who's not like, what is that nugget?
Sally Pofcher 27:37
Yeah, so, so that was for me, again, good fortune of like, a good foundation. So, by chance, my oldest daughter's going to work for McKinsey, my gosh, like I wasn't even anything I thought about but good foundation.
Sally Pofcher 27:48
For me operating is a thrill. So, everyone's different, but having been both a consultant, and then spent some time as an Operating Partner at L Catterton. For me, I've realized, being close to the action, and acting, being in the market is where I get like the idea that you can make a choice, whether that's like a message you send to customers, or it's a product you just try, it might be a product you try and other people didn't think was going to be great. And you're like, let's just buy 1000 of them see what happens.
Sally Pofcher 28:17
It's just different, because it's like, you can take small bets. And for me, the brand in the business is built by a series of actions in the marketplace, not by the concept of the actions in the deck. So, that's, that, for me is a thrill. I went from big to small, and there are different moments, where I could feel proud of that, or I could feel like oh, I'm in a small company, like the number of zeros in this comp-, I talk in millions, and not billions, I get products that are 1000s, and not 100s of 1000s.
Sally Pofcher 28:49
You know, I worried about, you know, in 2007 a paper shortage, I was doing things to save, you know, $50,000 increments, because that would save a job. So, a very different scale, you know, and I have found that, that is enjoyable to me. So, there may be moments where I go like, oh, I could, you know, like people will be like, well, you're too small the company to do this, like, oh you, you know, but I like being close to the action like being close to product. And I maybe I'd come back to that.
Sally Pofcher 29:18
But I, I saw there probably other big companies that I would ler-, like more but I went to the Gap and the time I was there had a lot of posturing and positioning that was in presentations, and not a lot of things that were changing anything for the customer. And it was maddening, like at the end of the day, like the things that address the opportunity are, have to be in contact with the customer. So, I think like things that are kind of quirky, smaller and less mass, but you know, (crossover talk), -
Veronika Sonsev 29:20
You like to get things done, it's like that ability to, -
Sally Pofcher 29:46
Yeah, I bet you can, I bet you can in big companies so I could be talking to myself but for me, going small helped me get closer to the action. I love product and storytelling and creating and I think at this point in my life, I wouldn't want to work for a company that made something or did something that I wasn't a passionate advocate of, it's a whole lot easier as a CEO, when you can, like preach, blow wind in the sails of the company from a place of, tru,- belief. And so, I wouldn't want to do anything otherwise, like, I, I don't need to go sell widgets and I really like, you know, the, I have eyes that can see patterns, and, and ask the why of like the color palette and stuff. So, and I delight in the, you know, the cork of like, when we go hustle out a pride collection with rainbow stripes that we've never done before, stepping into something new, and seeing how people respond to it.
Sally Pofcher 29:54
Always, for me, I was just talking to a woman last night that's considering I think is going to go work for someone I used to work with. And she wasn't sure about it, she doesn't know him as well as I do. So, I was like, always go walk into work with people that you are going to lock arms with on the mission like this is a, that's a good person to work with. If, if you could work with the people that you most like working with, you know, they're good athletes, and they get stuff done, and you, kind of like their energy, bigger than the jobs themselves.
Sally Pofcher 31:19
Love your life, like I would never want anyone I was talking like my lessons learned are also about always reinforcing that I have like, I have three daughters that are going to be the root of everything I do. I could get emotional here. But like I, you know, don't miss too many mornings or nights or school events, like I go to those things. I go on vacation, always everywhere and be energized by the world at large in my best self bringing to the company, is the me, that is imperfectly a mother and a friend and a voyeur of the world and not working all the time.
Veronika Sonsev 32:00
And I guess I want to kind of double click on that a little bit. Because you know, you you've, you've been CEO twice that you mentioned Paper Source and we talked about Hanna. And you've also served on boards where you've been in a position where you've had to help a company pick the CEO?
Sally Pofcher 32:16
Yes.
Veronika Sonsev 32:17
So, what does it take to be a successful CEO? And, and from your perspective, how will that role change in five years? It's already changed a lot you know how do you envision the retail CEO role changing and five years from now?
Sally Pofcher 32:28
I guess the first question of picking a CEO. I mean, there are different endeavors there are different kinds of states that you find a company in. So, there are, whatever that cliché; is different horses for different courses, depending on the brand and the type of problem, there are different profiles that need to, whether it's galvanizing product or energizing a team, you know everyone has to do more than one thing.
Sally Pofcher 32:51
But sometimes you're in a very acute financial thing, and you need someone to do, you know. I, I think there should have a set of basics that are around someone that can actually crystallize a purpose and, the overriding purpose that can be aligned to it but can articulate it and rally people around it. It has to be about product for me, like no matter what it is, even if it is the widget company or the bookshelf company or the speaker company, the product has to have a place in the marketplace, that's if you know, got a value proposition that's continually moving to be relevant, and no company standstill.
Sally Pofcher 32:58
So, someone's got to always be able to find talent, that's great, or, you know, energize that, my view is that the CEO set the goals and set the pace. So, I'm like, if it's for like a dog sled, I've got to be constantly pulling faster than anyone would pull naturally themselves. Because all sorts of good executives will put a plan together over the plan that can be achieved. And my job is to set the marker higher for everyone. Partly informed by where we need to go as an enterprise, but partly just to keep people stretching outside of where they might naturally say like, all right, here's what we can do next. So, that sort of plan and then the pacing.
Sally Pofcher 34:06
And I just think there's different kinds of CEOs also for private equity owned companies, public companies, private companies, because the stewardship of capital, the balance sheet, as well as the P&L is a different sport. And there are a lot of rising CEOs or people that want to be a CEO next, maybe run a division where the thing that maybe they don't know, they don't know, is how the use of cash and capital and the time value of that and the return profile is different in the kind of discipline around that is a little bit different when you're in a private equity type of ownership. And then ultimately, there's just kind of a general spark whether you think someone's a driver.
Veronika Sonsev 34:51
All good advice, and, and you've definitely seen CEOs struggle over whether it's the use of capital or when companies go public, like dealing with investors, it's just there's so many hiccups, there's so many things you've never done.
Sally Pofcher 35:06
Yeah, and I, I probably should have said, but it goes maybe should never go without saying a set of moral values which you can't always get your finger on, married with someone who really wants to win, you know?
Michael LeBlanc 35:18
So culture, culture still matters. I mean it, it, -
Sally Pofcher 35:20
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 35:21
You know, the culture and I know what you say about private equity in different people in different roles. We see that, we even see that today with Peloton news out today when we're recording this, right. The CFO becomes a CEO and clearly they're going to go through some financial restructuring, right? (crossover talk), -
Sally Pofcher 35:36
Yeah, that's right for that, for that moment. (crossover talk) I mean, I think all, all some of those things, they're all many of those things are ever green. I do think a lot of things are changing, they are probably the same undercurrents. But purpose matters more to millennials than, than it ever has in terms of choosing a place to work. And for all of us, like we've just gone through two years of being inside and existentially questioning lots of things. So, feeling like you are part of something that matters, and that is good in some form. So, someone that can find purpose, create purpose.
Sally Pofcher 36:14
In consumer businesses, getting to the consumer is harder all the time, right? We and we've got these high scale organizations, I'm picking my words carefully, right? But like Facebook itself, right, probably Facebook and Google probably take five to 10% out of lots of consumer companies revenue stream.
Sally Pofcher 36:33
Probably, and yet I'm not arguing that they're not earning it because they're largely attributable high performing ways of connecting with consumers. And yet, like, it's a high percentage of most people's marketing budgets. You know, Amazon is a game changing way of delivering things to consumers and economics that, you know, like, it's hard to hide the fact that it costs eight to 10 bucks to ship a package to consumers, you know, like, at some point, -
Michael LeBlanc 36:36
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 36:59
This is getting harder and harder to just tuck away in free. And so, I think there's like lots of new partnerships and bridges that are stressing business models. (crossover talk) I think story telling is continuing to evolve. How to, how to, -
Michael LeBlanc 37:13
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 37:14
Tell a brand story? How to find consumers and let evangelists that don't look like your customers be evangelists.
Michael LeBlanc 37:19
(crossover talk), you put, you've put on a master class basically of brand and strategy. And, and I think we, I, I think we could have three of these episodes, Veronika, so let's book Sally back for it. (crossover talk), -
Sally Pofcher 37:35
You’ve run long. But I also think that there's like, employees are getting more complicated, because they're, -
Veronika Sonsev 37:39
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 37:39
Spread out. I think we are not all as good as we're going to have to be on environmental stuff. And going from green washing to real, and that includes like, where you locate stuff.
Michael LeBlanc 37:50
Yeah. And if capital
Sally Pofcher 37:51
And if capital gets more expensive, right, which it's going to, -
Michael LeBlanc 37:54
When not, if it's going to get more expensive it's going to get more expensive. All right, so you've opened the door to my last question, which is people. So, I'm sure you're, you know you are going through a big transition, trying to find and, and hiring people? Are you looking for people now this is your opportunity to say for anyone listening, hey, this is a great place to work and you can find jobs here and, and, -
Sally Pofcher 38:12
Yes.
Michael LeBlanc 38:13
A couple of minutes on this, -
Sally Pofcher 38:14
Let's just say, I would start by saying, with all great respect for all the talent at Hanna, we're always looking. So whoever you are, and whatever your talents are, if you're interested, reach out, you know, reach out on my (inaudible) website, because things are always changing people's lives change, people come and go.
Sally Pofcher 38:33
Right now, we are very rapidly and assiduously building our digital team, you know, like so our site merchandising capability, our customer analytics team, you know, how do we know more so that we can you know, the classic way of calling it CRM, like how can we help personalize customer journeys? -
Michael LeBlanc 38:52
Yeah.
Sally Pofcher 38:53
How do we take what we know and do it better for consumers? We have a lot of content to create, you know, so graphic designers and creative talent that tell stories in animated motion ways. And they'll always be places where our product teams, you know, we have a lot of young talent that go out on maternity leave. So, they're always places where our product team or our design team where talents needed. So, come our way.
Michael LeBlanc 39:17
And mostly, but not exclusively in Portland, is that a fair statement? You also said? (inaudible), distribution, (inaudible). -
Sally Pofcher 39:23
That was a perfect phrasing of it mostly, but not exclusively. We have a beautiful, light filled office in Portland, hopefully opening soon. But in the meantime, -
Michael LeBlanc 39:32
The world is your oyster. All right. Well, listen on behalf of Veronika, I real-, Sally, this has been a great, a great interview and great spending time with you and getting to know both the business and, and you so I want to thank you for being on Conversations with CommerceNext podcast. It is a real treat for me to get to know the brand and, and thank you so much for articulating what you're going through as I said, what a master class and thank you again so much for your time.
Michael LeBlanc 39:54
Thanks for tuning into this episode of Conversations with CommerceNext. Please follow us on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast platform, where we will be sharing career advice and marketing strategies from eCommerce and digital marketing leaders and retailers and direct to consumer brands each and every episode.
Michael LeBlanc 40:10
CommerceNext is a community events series and conference for marketers at retail and direct to consumer brands, through our online forums, interviews, webinars, summits and other in person events. We harness the collective wisdom of our community to help marketers grow their businesses and advance their careers. Join CommerceNext events to meet other industry leaders, and learn the latest eCommerce and marketing strategies. You can find upcoming events at commercenext.com. Have a fantastic week everyone.
Michael LeBlanc 40:42
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure and click and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week.
And check out my other retail industry media properties the Remarkable Retail podcast, Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and The Food Professor podcast with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois.
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I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company and Maven Media, and if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co
Have a safe week everyone
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Hanna, people, brand, CEO, product, retail, company, consumers, McKinsey, customers, business, changing, podcast, set, merchandising, talk, Sally, kids