Today, we have a special treat in store for you as we sit down with Cassie Holmes, a professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management, a social psychologist, and author of Happier Hour: How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most. So please sit back, relax, and get ready to be inspired, as Cassie provides us with the antidote to overscheduling and feeling like your days aren't your own!
Hello, and welcome to the Voice of Retail podcast! My name is Michael LeBlanc, and I am your host. I believe in the power of storytelling to bring the retail industry to life. Each week, I'll bring insights, perspectives, and experiences from some of the retail industry's most innovative and influential voices. The Voice of Retail is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Today, we have a special treat in store for you as we sit down with Cassie Holmes, a professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management, a social psychologist, and author of Happier Hour: How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most. So please sit back, relax, and get ready to be inspired, as Cassie provides us with the antidote to overscheduling and feeling like your days aren't your own!
https://www.cassiemholmes.com/
About Cassie
Cassie Holmes is a Professor at UCLA’s Anderson School of Management. Cassie is an expert on time and happiness and author of the upcoming book, Happier Hour: How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most, which is based on her wildly popular MBA course, Life Design for Happiness.
Cassie's research on the role of time in cultivating life satisfaction has been published in leading academic journals and earned her multiple Early Career Awards. Cassie was identified by Poets & Quants as one of the best 40 business professors under 40, and popular accounts of her research have been featured on NPR and in such publications as The Economist, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, and Scientific American.
Previously, Cassie was a tenured faculty member and award-winning teacher at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. She has a Ph.D. from Stanford University’s Graduate School of Business, and a B.A. from Columbia.
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc. and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada and the Bank of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience with Levi's, Black & Decker, Hudson's Bay, Today's Shopping Choice and Pandora Jewellery.
Michael has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated worldwide in thought leadership panels. ReThink Retail has added Michael to their prestigious Top 100 Global Retail Influencers list for 2022 for the second year in a row. The London-based Retail Technology Innovation Hub recently added Michael to their Top 100 Retail Technology Influencers List for 2022.
Michael is also the president of Maven Media, producing a network of leading trade podcasts, including Canada's top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail. He produces and co-hosts Remarkable Retail with best-selling author Steve Dennis, now ranked one of the top retail podcasts in the world.
Based in New York, Conversations with CommerceNext is a podcast focusing on retail eCommerce, digital marketing and retail careers with episodes talking with C-level executives operating in the U.S. and internationally.
Based in San Francisco, Global eCommerce Leaders podcast explores global cross-border issues and opportunities for eCommerce brands and retailers.
Last but not least, Michael is the producer and host of the "Last Request Barbeque" channel on YouTube, where he cooks meals to die for - and collaborates with top brands as a food and product influencer across North America.
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Hello and welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. My name is Michael LeBlanc. I am your host; I believe in the power of storytelling to bring the retail industry to life. Each week I'll bring insights, perspectives, and experiences to some of the retail industry's most innovative and influential voices.
Michael LeBlanc 00:09
Today, we have a special treat in store for you as we sit down with Cassie Holmes, a professor at UCLA Anderson School of Management, a social psychologist, author of the book, Happier Hour: How to Beat Distraction, Expand Your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most. So, please sit back, relax and get ready to be inspired, as Cassie provides us with the antidote over scheduling and feeling like your days aren't your own. Cassie, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. How are you doing this afternoon?
Cassie Holmes 00:49
Wonderful. Thanks so much for having me, Michael.
Michael LeBlanc 00:51
Well, it is my pleasure. Where am I finding you this afternoon?
Cassie Holmes 00:56
Well, this afternoon I am in Toronto, Canada, but my home base is in Santa Monica, California.
Michael LeBlanc 01:03
Fantastic. You know, I'm in Toronto, Canada. So, we're in the same place. How funny is that (crossover talk)?
Cassie Holmes 01:09
Well, it's sunny and that’s more brisk than I'm used to.
Michael LeBlanc 01:13
Yeah, it is a little bit brisk. Now what brings you to Toronto?
Cassie Holmes 01:16
I'm giving a talk today about my book, Happier Hour at the Rotman School of Business. Well, as it happens, I'm a graduate of the Rotman School of Business, you and I are off to a great start already, we, yes, we have so much in common.
Michael LeBlanc 01:27
All ready. We've got to jump right in let's, let's start, where we should probably start, which is to tell us a bit about yourself. Who are you and what's your background? And what do you do for a living?
Cassie Holmes 01:44
Yeah, so I am a professor at UCLA Anderson School of Management. And throughout my career, I have been researching the role of time for happiness. And in the last few years, I've pulled together a lot of the research findings, and developed a course and I've been teaching it called: "Applying the Science of Happiness to Life Design". And I've been teaching this to MBAs and executive MBAs about exactly that. Basically, how do we invest our time, so that we feel happy in our days and aligning those pursuits, centers, careers and life overall, with our broader goals, so that we feel more satisfied with their lives and it's working, my students are significantly happier, as a result, more satisfied in their careers and applying the insights myself, I can absolutely attest to the fact that it works. I'm pretty darn happy.
Michael LeBlanc 02:46
All of which is fantastic. Now let me ask you this. What got you to, did you always want to be an academic? Did you always want to teach? Were you the, you know, the kind of person in the sandbox who was saying we could do this more efficiently? Like, tell me a little bit on how you wound up doing what you do? Yeah,
Cassie Holmes 03:02
Yeah, it's actually because I like observing people and understanding what makes us tick, what makes us happier and feel better and more motivated in our lives. And through the observation, what really drove me into this career was the research aspect of it. And then I had no idea that I would end up having a profession that involves teaching, because public speaking was truly my phobia. And now the fact that I do it so often is sort of funny. But it actually works because I'm so excited about what I'm sharing. And so, if I have any opportunity to tell folks about the research so that they can feel happier. It's such a delight, and I'm happy to do so.
Michael LeBlanc 03:52
Now, was it happenstance that you do that in a business or an MBA program? I'm sure doctors and dentists and lots of professionals, professionals could use your advice is, is it just kind of happenstance or did you point yourself that way?
Cassie Holmes 04:04
Well basically, the research that I do, and my training is as a social psychologist, so sort of understanding what circumstances, what decisions influence, our judgments, and behavior and emotions more broadly. But I was, I did my PhD at a business school and have been in a business school because I was interested and continue to be interested in not just understanding the psychology, but really applying it, applying it so that organizations can figure out how to make their employees more motivated and satisfied in their careers and for actually my PhD and the department I'm in at a business school is a marketing department. So, it's really understanding how to connect with consumers in a way that they feel more fulfilled in their sort of relationships with the brands that they're using, and then their consumption behavior.
Michael LeBlanc 05:07
So, before we dive into this excellent book, Happier Hour, right, I've had a chance to read it's wonderful book, I can't pass up on this opportunity to tap into your wisdom, as you said, social psychologist, I want to talk to you about the times we're living in today. So, you know, we're in some quasi-post-COVID world, we've got a new hybrid workplace, which, on the one hand, makes, you know, there's good productivity. And on the other hand, it makes it difficult to connect socially, I think, particularly for probably your students, right? They don't get the mentoring, the tutoring, the culture, you know, a lot of folks meet their partners and friends in the workplace, maybe that's a little harder. I mean, we've got social media, we've got, you know, you call happiness I've heard called subjective well-being before, what do you observe with your students? And, you know, in your academic research, what's the state of happiness in where we are today? And are you? Are you optimistic? Or are you, are you worried?
Cassie Holmes 06:00
Yeah. And it's a really good question. And I'm actually glad that you pointed to what I even mean, when I use the term happiness. And I do mean, what, as researchers refer to as subjective well-being, which includes both feeling more positive emotion, the negative emotion in our day-to-day as well as greater satisfaction about our lives overall. So, it's not just this sort of flipping, passing feeling, it's really the sense that we are satisfied, fulfilled, have a sense of meaning in our lives.
Cassie Holmes 06:24
I will say that I am optimistic, and I will explain why. What's interesting is that, prior to the pandemic, I used to have to motivate why happiness is important. I used to share all the studies that show that it's neither frivolous, nor is it a selfish pursuit, because when we feel happy, it makes us show up better at work. It makes us more adaptive, in our problem solving, more creative, more engaged employees, it helps us in our relationships, because when we feel happier, we are nicer, we're more likely to help others out. And it even helps us with respect to health.
Cassie Holmes 06:50
But honestly, because the last couple of years have taught us that we can't take our emotional well-being for granted with burnout rates as high as they are, anxiety rates as high as there are, none of us takes our happiness for granted anymore, nor do managers, nor do you know businesses and so I don't even have to motivate it. Also, time for other things that I researched. The pandemic has taught us just how fragile life is. And you know, the hours of our days add up to the years of our life. And so everyone seems to be trying to figure out now, how do we invest these hours in our days to make it so that we feel and experience our lives is satisfying and meaningful? And the good news is that there are answers and I, you know, I've been doing this research for the last 15 years well before the pandemic. And I'm so happy that I've now sort of had the book ready, where I sort of pulled together a lot of the answers from the research to help people do this to know how do we spend our time so that our days are feeling worthwhile, and minimizing the amount of time that feels like a waste so that at the end of the week, we can look back and feel satisfied and fulfilled and look back on our lives, honestly, without regret.
Michael LeBlanc 08:53
And then in that first part, I hadn't connected those two, it's a really an interesting point because it really connects back to, you know, what business people sometimes look at, which is productivity, right, that the two are intimately connected, that they're not, they're not different concepts to hap-, what you're doing is connecting, you know, happiness, subjective well-being and productivity. So, they all one plus one equals three, kind of thing, by the, (crossover talk) describing, right.
Cassie Holmes 09:17
And it's interesting because time management, actually, which is how some describe my book and my work, historically, or I think many people think of it just about productivity, and really actually more about efficiency, how can I get more done,
Michael LeBlanc 09:23
Yeah, yeah.
Cassie Holmes 09:25
More quickly, but I actually suggest that we alter the outcome or the goal in how we manage or invest our time towards a greater sense of satisfaction and fulfillment, spending more on what's worthwhile, rather than just being driven by efficiency. Productivity and having a sense of productivity and progress absolutely contributes to our overall satisfaction and fulfillment. But like, honestly, my goal is that people feel satisfied in their lives. And to the extent that I can help them invest in ways that do make them feel productive, but more importantly, spending in ways that feel worthwhile, which also incorporates time outside of work, you know, like investing in those relationships that are absolutely so important to our satisfaction and well-being and you can't, you can't sort of, (inaudible) when you're thinking about the long term in terms of us thriving within our careers and our lives, you can't forfeit or neglect the other aspects of our lives, like the relationships, like taking care of ourselves with respect to health, like exercise or sleep. Because when you sacrifice those, then ultimately, you're not, you're going to burn out and not be productive anyway,
Michael LeBlanc 11:10
Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, because what you're talking about is, is don't measure the wrong thing. And what you say it's so interesting, because as I continue to reflect on what you've been saying, I mean, I've been reading from, from folks like, Scott Galloway, he talks about, you know, this one in seven men, I think he says, in America don't have a friend, a single friend. I mean, how do you, how do you achieve happiness? You know, this, this crisis of loneliness? So,
Cassie Holmes 11:36
Yeah,
Michael LeBlanc 11:38
I'm glad to hear your, you’re thinking that there's, there's optimism ahead. Now let's, I want to get into the tradecraft of you writing a book because I think this is your first actual book, so to speak, of course, as an academic, you would be publishing papers, and I'm sure you're well published. But what was that like? How did you approach writing? Because it's a different thing, right? I have, I have a, I have a podcast partner, who's, who's a, he's a PhD as well, we, he's The Food Professor. And he often talks about, you know, there's (inaudible) things I need to do to publish. And that's a whole different world than writing books. How did you approach it? Did you? Did you set a, I need to write a number of words per day? Or did you have a thesis for writing, like, just give me a bit of insight to that?
Cassie Holmes 12:16
Oh, my gosh, it was definitely, there was a learning curve. It took me, I would say, a good year to write the first chapter, and then another six months to write the remaining eight chapters.
Michael LeBlanc 12:32
And, and I bet you bang out academic papers, like in half a day of similar length, right? I mean, right?
Cassie Holmes 12:38
I mean, because, because I got it wrong. That first chapter I wrote about, like my training and my experiences, writing for academic journals, where it is absolutely about making an argument and then supporting it with the research. And then when I submitted my first chapter, which I was so proud of it, and I'd spent so long on to my editor she was like, no, nobody, you know, will want to read this like, and, and the, and then I basically had to relearn. And it was, it proved to be a question of showing, rather than telling. And the showing comes through stories, and anecdotes. And it's actually instead of starting with an argument and supporting it by research, it's actually learning how to tell stories, so that people care and then concluding with the point from the research. And so, in the book, I'm actually proud that I have heard from readers that it is very readable and engaging, because I told stories. And then when my editor was like, you need stories. I was like, Well, what stories? And then I realized, well, actually, since I'm living this stuff,
Michael LeBlanc 13:32
Yeah.
Cassie Holmes 13:34
So, a lot of my own personal stories in it, and there's a lot of stories from my students and their experience in applying that insight. So, it was a process and I very much appreciate you asking the question.
Michael LeBlanc 14:08
Well, I think you nailed it, because it's very engaging, I mean, it's a very good read. So, congratulations. I mean, the whole book is, is, you know, that nice, that art and science of telling a story that you can relate to with relatable examples. I want to get to this idea. I've had this theory for many, many years, I used to be in you know, I'm writing marketing, you know, as a marketer for a long time and still am. And you know, it would be like this is, we're addressing the time starved fill in the blank person. And I always used to think, is that an artificial construct? Because it feels like over the decades if you and I were to compare what it took for our parents and grandparents to get things done, like shopping five days a week or you know versus eCommerce today, it's shipped to your door like I can give you a dozen examples of things that are really well, easier in our lives that saves us amounts of time. Where did all that time go, is it this cult of, we used to call it a cult to business, we had an elevator, we went up and down in the building. And when you get in the elevator, you say, hey, how's it going? Everybody goes busy, busy, busy, busy, because you felt like if you didn't say busy, you'd be like, how's it going? Ah nothing, it's kind of a slow day, people kind of look at you sideways. And like, really? So, what do you think of this idea that it's an artificial construct that it's in our, it's in our heads? Or is it, is it real? Is their lives really accelerated and talk about that a little bit?
Cassie Holmes 15:27
Yeah, so our sense of time, starving, or I refer to it as time poverty is a feeling, it's a subjective sense as an acute feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it. And I think the reason that we feel so time poor or time starved these days, is because of the amount and endless possibility of things that we can be and feel like we should be doing at any second, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 15:59
FOMO, it's all about FOMO.
Cassie Holmes 16:01
Totally. And it's exacerbated by technology, basically, our cell phones, you know, or smartphones that exist in our pockets, so that at any and every moment, we can be seeing all the other things that people are doing that they're posting on social media. And it looks so fun, because of course, they're posting those like perfectly fun smiley moments. But also, there's like, we can do anything at any moment. Like, I can watch a TV show from my phone, at any point, I can take a course from my phone, at any point, I can, you know, like, attend a concert, or visit a museum from my phone at any point. I, (crossover talk).
Michael LeBlanc 16:44
You can call a friend at any point I forget, sometimes you can do that on the phone. Yeah, you
Cassie Holmes 16:48
Yeah, you can call a friend, you can also check items off your to-do list, like you can go grocery shopping on your phone at any point. So, all of this with time, feeling time poor is this feeling of having too much to do and not enough time to do it. Of course, we don't have enough hours in the day to do everything that we have come to sort of believe that we can and should be doing. And so it is a construct. And the good thing is that it being a sort of social construct is that it's something that we can also since it's constructed, and moldable, we can mold it ourselves and become more intentional about, okay, what are the things that I actually want to be doing and feel like I should be doing being intentional about those activities that are actually worthwhile and not just being reactive, and reacting to all the sorts of possibilities and incoming pings and requests and,
Michael LeBlanc 17:49
Yeah.
Cassie Holmes 17:50
Opportunities. And so, I also want to touch on your, your note about sharing the fact that we feel busy. It's interesting, because yes, there is research that shows that busy-ness has become somewhat of a status symbol, because it signals that you are,
Michael LeBlanc 18:02
You're important.
Cassie Holmes 18:04
Yeah, you're important, you're in high demand. But what's interesting is in some of my current research with Maria Tropea, we have actually found that when people tell others, they're busy, while people are actually saying, intending to express that they are stressed and overwhelmed and sort of looking to connect by being vulnerable in sharing that level of stress. What people actually hear is that you are communicating your importance. So, be careful when people ask how you are doing? When you say you're feeling busy, then they hear you telling them how important you are, even though that wasn't your intent.
Michael LeBlanc 18:59
Interesting. I want to pull on one thread, specifically and you mentioned it several times in the book about mobile phones. I feel like there are buildings full of people who are very smart psychologists whose job it is to design apps that really get to our basic needs, and it makes it very difficult to put the phone down. Is it, to, to detach from that app? I mean, you know the stories about Netflix, right? It all changed for them when they automatically played the next episode as opposed to having to do something as simple as say, play the next episode. Can this distraction war be won, there seems like a lot of forces against us in terms of trying to get us to use those things and to you know, really, really attract or you know, really get to our basic needs that we don't even understand ourselves.
Cassie Holmes 19:51
Yeah, it absolutely can be won and the person who can win it for each of us is ourselves, right because what the company as they're doing, they want you to be engaged, but they're choosing for you to be engaged in their particular product. And you want to be engaged in whatever it is that you choose to spend your time on. But you need to be the one to choose what are those activities that you want to engage in and spend your time on. And so again, it's about being purposeful, and prioritizing.
Cassie Holmes 20:19
First, actually, in the book, I share lots of exercises to help people identify for themselves what are those activities that are most worthwhile. And then once you recognize, okay, these are the things that I want to carve out time for, protect time for, spend time on, then it's also up to you to manage your engagement in those activities. And so for those most important activities, where you don't want to be distracted, it makes them a no phone zone. So, put your phone away, because what your phone with the incoming pings will do is pull you out of whatever activity you are doing. So, I think absolutely, yes, it requires some deliberation and some intentionality and choice. But all of us have a choice in where we spend our time and how we spend our time. We also have a choice in our attention during that time. And it is as simple as putting your phone away so that you aren't distracted during those important times that you're spending.
Michael LeBlanc 21:38
I feel sometimes like there's people, as I said, in buildings, thinking anthropologically, you know, every time I hear a ding, I think I'm in a jungle and something's going to eat me. So, I have to pay attention to it, you know that, that wiggle reflex we used to have when we were designing websites, just make it move a little bit, because that'll get your attention. So, it's an uphill battle. Let's, let's take a quick step back. You know, we've been talking about your book, but tell me about it. I've described it like an operating manual for happiness. But I want to hear your description of it, kind of the thesis and the process in the book just to, just to kind of nail in a couple of sentences. So, people have a really good flavor of, of how the book flows and how you've constructed it.
Cassie Holmes 22:19
Yeah, so it's based on the research informing people how to invest the hours of their days, so that they can feel more joy in the moments, look back on their days and their weeks with greater satisfaction and fulfillment, and look back ultimately on their life without regret. And through that there's exercises that lead us to, or lead each individual to identify what are those ways of spending that are worthwhile? What are those ways of spending that are a waste, and sort of how to make the most of those worthwhile times. As well as how to minimize the waste or actually, in some cases, as either sort of reframe the time, so that, so the bundling strategy, for example, is like yes, there are things that we need to do in our lives, like chores that aren't necessarily fun, but we have to do and simply by bundling those unfun times with an activity you do enjoy, then all of a sudden that time feels less wasteful and more worthwhile.
Cassie Holmes 23:32
But I also really encourage folks to take a broader perspective of their time thinking about their lives overall thinking about what ultimately matters, what is your own individual purpose, your own individual set of values, so that taking that broader perspective and thinking about our years overall, what that does is really clarify and inform how we should be spending our hours today.
Michael LeBlanc 24:00
You, I wanted to touch on another example. You talked about some time crafting strategy, and one of the things I've been picking up on and it was a COVID thing that seems to be continuing with folks working at home is this idea of a faux commute. In other words, I'm gonna get up in the morning. I'm working from my home office, but I'm gonna go to that drive-thru for a cup of coffee just to kind of, I think it's, it's partially a routine and it's also parsi-, partially that's my time where I can just get myself organized for the day. Do you approve of, of such strategies? And is that what you mean by time crafting strategies?
Cassie Holmes 24:34
Yeah, that's it's, it's really wonderful. Because it sounds like being intentional, of recognizing that this was a time that sort of bookended the beginning and end of your day, the commute. And recognizing the aspects of that, that you miss, probably it's not sitting in traffic, or you take the metro like, you know, elbowing people on the train, but it is that time that is your time. And so to the extent that you can create and carve out and ritualize, even some of those routines to make the time to have that time and to make that time, more refreshing or rejuvenating or worthwhile. Yeah, and with the time crafting that sort of the second to last chapter were based off of all of the strategies throughout the book is basically how do you put them together to design your ideal week. And so that, it's fun to hear that that's one of your sorts of crafting strategies that you employ.
Michael LeBlanc 25:41
Well, my guest is Cassie Holmes, the book is “Happier Hour” it's available. today. It's available everywhere, where you love to, love to buy your books. Cassie, how can folks follow your work? I'm sure you will continue to do this work. Where can I get in touch with what you do on an ongoing basis and kind of keep in touch with the latest?
Cassie Holmes 26:00
Yeah, so I mean, my website, Cassie and mahomes.com is up to date with my latest research and where I am speaking and that, that sort of thing. Unfortunately, I don't spend hours fortunately, intentionally I don't spend a ton of time on social media, so you won't really find me other than on LinkedIn. But my website and honestly, in the book, I did my best to bring together all of the ideas and takeaways so that folks can apply it and benefit from my research as well as others you know, immediately in their lives.
Michael LeBlanc 26:37
Well listen, it's a great book I'd recommend it to everybody I had a laugh when I, I knew you were an academic because there's 40 pages of notes (inaudible) in a novel, so I knew you were, you had an academic so congratulations of breaking free from the constraints of publishing and getting the best of both worlds. Thanks so much for joining me on The Voice of Retail podcast. It's been a real treat chatting with you. I learned a lot and I loved the book and hope to put it into, into, into use myself. So listen, safe travels. Welcome to Toronto and, and safe travels. Enjoy your time here and, and safe travels back home.
Cassie Holmes 27:11
Thanks so much. This was a treat.
Michael LeBlanc 27:13
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure and click on subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically. And check out my other retail industry media properties, the Remarkable Retail podcast, Conversations with CommerceNext podcast and The Food Professor podcast with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my all-new YouTube barbecue show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week. I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company and Maven Media. And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co.
Have a safe week everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
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