Meet Marianne Lewis, co-author of the breakthrough new book from the Harvard Business Review Press, Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Meet Marianne Lewis, co-author of the breakthrough new book from the Harvard Business Review Press, Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven’t already, be sure and click subscribe on your favourite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week, and check out my other retail industry media properties; the Remarkable Retail podcast, the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and the Food Professor podcast. Last but not least, if you are into BBQ, check out my all new YouTube barbecue show, Last Request Barbeque, with new episodes each and every week!
I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company & Maven Media, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co! Have a safe week everyone!
About Marianne
Marianne W. Lewis, PhD, is dean and professor of management at the Carl H. Lindner College of Business University of Cincinnati. Previously, she has served as dean of the Cass Business School, City, University of London and as a UK Fulbright. A thought leader in organizational paradoxes, she is among the world’s top 1% most-cited researchers in her field (Web of Science). Her research explores tensions and competing demands surrounding leadership and innovation. She applies her paradox lens across such diverse contexts as product development, organizational change, governance and technology implementation. Lewis has earned numerous teaching and research awards throughout her academic career. Her work appears in such journals as the Harvard Business Review, Academy of Management Journal, Organization Science, and Journal of Operations Management. Lewis earned her MBA from the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University and PhD from the Gatton College of Business and Economics at the University of Kentucky.
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated on thought leadership panels worldwide. Michael was recently added to ReThink Retail’s prestigious Top 100 Global Retail Influencers for a second year in 2022.
Michael is also the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts, including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus the Remarkable Retail with author Steve Dennis, Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Most recently, Michael launched Conversations with CommerceNext, a podcast focussed on retail eCommerce, digital marketing and retail careers - all available on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music and all major podcast platforms. Michael is also the producer and host of the “Last Request Barbeque” channel on YouTube where he cooks meals to die for and influencer riches.
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to The Voice of Retail, I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 00:11
On this episode, meet Marianne Lewis, co-author of the breakthrough new book from the Harvard Business Review, press, ‘Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems’.
Marianne Lewis 00:22
In the work that we've done with lots of colleagues, and we have colleagues globally, we find that there are three factors in the world that intensifies the experience of tensions, meaning, (inaudible), are the likelihood you're going to feel caught in a tug of war.
Marianne Lewis 00:38
And there are three things it's change, scarcity, and plurality, right? The faster tomorrow, today becomes tomorrow, that, that kind of speed, you're talking about. Scarcity, that feeling that you have less to work with and more (inaudible) higher expectations. And plurality, means multiple stakeholders, and we are in the perfect storm. So, I don't think it's surprising at all, that, as you said, it feels unprecedented. I, I agree. And it might just keep, you know, moving in that direction that this is the new norm.
Michael LeBlanc 01:10
Let's listen to my exclusive interview with Marianne, right now. Marianne, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. How are you doing this afternoon?
Marianne Lewis 01:18
Hi, I'm doing well, Michael, so glad to be with you.
Michael LeBlanc 01:21
Well, thanks for joining me. Where am I finding you today?
Marianne Lewis 01:24
I am in my home base, It's Cincinnati, Cincinnati, Ohio.
Michael LeBlanc 01:28
Fantastic, well, I'm here to we're here to talk about your, your new book hot off the shelves available today. But before we do that, let's, let's talk about you. Tell us a little bit about yourself, your personal, professional journey and, and your academic focuses as a researcher.
Marianne Lewis 01:45
Great, well, thank you. I am an academic. I'm a professor of management and leadership. I started my career at the University of Cincinnati, and then ended up actually as a Dean in London at the City University of London for four years and then returned just recently back to Cincinnati to be Dean of the Lindner College of Business here.
Marianne Lewis 02:06
In terms of my research, I really started by studying automation. And then I look-, shifted to innovation in product development and some other realms. But across these different topical, of focus of my work was this underlying theme of tensions, I just saw them everywhere. Leaders grappling with competing demands, feeling paralyzed, caught in tug of wars, and I kept hearing this common language. And very early in my career, I did a deep dive into the idea of the concept of paradox, which has been around for a very long time, as in 1000s of years, from Greek philosophers to Lao Tzu, and that just (crossover talk), took me on, -
Michael LeBlanc 02:52
Who is it Barry, Barry Schwartz, The Paradox of Choice when I think of a book with that, -
Marianne Lewis 02:57
Yes, that's a g-, it's a great example, Barry's book, on the “Paradox of Choice”. And it's been I mean, Barry's a good example, as long as this, this concept has been around. It's really much more recent that we've seen it in business and organizational studies. But it's fascinating to me, looking at tensions as paradox changes the way we think.
Michael LeBlanc 03:19
Interesting, now, you did skip over one element, you're a Fulbright Scholar. I wanted to talk to you about your, your journey. Who did you always want to be an academic and, and how did you find your way into the, the work you do today? Was there, you know, the old saying Yogi Berra, right, "when you come to a fork in the road, take it", tell me about that a little bit?
Marianne Lewis 03:37
No, it it's a great question. I am an academic brat. By that I mean, my father, who, who is still alive, but he was an academic, of a of, of rather an accomplished academic at Stanford, Harvard and INSEAD.
Marianne Lewis 03:51
And so, my rebellion, Michael, was I was not going to be an academic. I was going to be a practitioner; I was going to do business instead of studying business. And when I get into my MBA at Indiana at the Kelley School, I, I realized I was focusing at least as much if not quite a bit more on how they were teaching. And these underlying theories, then on, the what, and so as all my MBA colleagues, were starting to look for their Wall Street internships, I decided, You know what I'm going to take this summer and work with a faculty member on research. And sure enough, I realized sometimes you know, the apple doesn't (inaudible) far, and it, it ended up happening, and I've loved it. It's been a wonderful career.
Marianne Lewis 04:34
And the Fulbright was actually an interesting opportunity. I left for my Fulbright in 2014 to write this book. And you know, serendipity happens. And I ended up being a Dean in London. And so, I put this book on the back burner for a while to really actually practice what I profess and practice leading, and I love it. I mean, it's very hard. I mean, anybody you talk to you on leadership will say you live in swim in tensions. But it felt it feels good to, you know, manage my own tension between theory and practice. I think it makes me better at both, or at least it makes me learn.
Michael LeBlanc 05:13
Yeah, we don't have to go, we don't have to go far in our lives or professional, professional lives or personal lives to find paradox. So, that's why I was so interested in and looking forward to our conversation. So, the new book with your co-author Wendy Smith, Both/And Thinking Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems. Tell me about your co-author for, for a few minutes.
Marianne Lewis 05:33
Oh, Wendy Smith is tremendous. Wendy and I met when she was actually finishing her PhD at Harvard Business School. And realized we were both seeing paradoxes everywhere. At the time, she was studying major changes at IBM, and how they were managing innovation, both bold innovations for tomorrow, as well as keeping the trains running today. And we started collaborating, and that was 20 years ago. We've, we've obviously worked with other colleagues along the way, but always ended up being really primary co-authors for each other. And she is at the University of Delaware now.
Michael LeBlanc 06:13
Talk about the tradecraft of the book, you mentioned it earlier that you kind of got to put it on hold. But how did you approach writing the book, bringing it to life? I think I, I couldn't find another book, you, you, your contributor. But is this your first book? And so, take me through a little bit of the tradecraft and, and why you thought there was finally space on the shelf for it? And, and importantly, who did you write the book for who is this an academic tomb? Or is this something that, that should be on the desks of, of leaders from, (crossover talk), -
Marianne Lewis 06:40
You ask great questions, Michael. I mean, you, you are right, it is, it is both mine and Wendy's first book that isn't a non-academic book, you might find us at, we did an Oxford Handbook and some other pieces. But we've always been academics. So, we've been publishing for the top academic journals for 20 plus years.
Marianne Lewis 07:00
And in fact, the first book I said, I probably wrote two thirds of it, and 2014 was an academic book. But what we've seen, particularly over the past, probably two to three years is the language of paradox and Both/And all over the place. We've seen Deloitte using it, Barclays. Wendy is a Yale graduate, and they actually they used Both/And in their marketing. And we realized, okay, a lot of people are starting to see what we've seen in the practitioner world.
Marianne Lewis 07:31
But it's one thing to use the words, it's another thing to know what they mean, and how you approach it. And how do you go beyond a label to actually the practice of Both/And Thinking? And so, we felt like Michael, it was the time there was, you know, as you said, space on the shelf, because people were needing a deeper dive into the how, and what does it really mean to be Both/And thinker? How does the how-to paradox this plan into our lives, our, our leadership, our organizations? So, we took this as a time I we completely rewrote what I wrote in 2014, to your question about audience and said, actually, we had a couple of questions.
Marianne Lewis 08:10
Our first question was, you know, clearly, we're business professors. So, we've been studying paradoxes, competing demands tensions, in organizations, in business leadership. And as we've been doing that throughout, we see them in our own lives. We've spoken with many a leader who ends up in turning the table and starting to talk about the tensions between work and family, self is another, we get into all sorts of much, much more individual personal tensions. And it really shifted our focus in this book to say, it needs to be for everyone. And it's more of a it's a big idea book, rather than a business book.
Marianne Lewis 08:50
And that challenged Wendy and me, too, in our language and our skills. I mean, as I said, we've written for the academic journals, this is not an academic book, it's not meant for that. It really is meant to say, you, you've felt them, you know what the tug of war feels like. It can feel paralyzing, it can feel polarizing. How do you how do you navigate; how do you work through? And that's what we're hoping this is doing? It's bringing some life and practicalities to some language we're hearing increasingly,
Michael LeBlanc 09:23
It's such un-. I, I, it's such a fascinating time. I'd call it unprecedented, maybe it's unprecedented, I don't know, we all in our generations we all think everything's unprecedented, you know, coming out of the COVID era where you know, leadership and leaders discovered suddenly they could make decisions much quicker.
Michael LeBlanc 09:39
I talked to lots of CEOs and said, oh, my goodness, if I could only bottle that, that thing in my organization, you know, we were making decisions that would take us years and we were making them in days. And you know, right now, I think of the paradox of the, the work from home, restructuring of work and, and you know, there's lots of pros and cons or paradoxes. Within that framework take us to this central premise of the book, the tensions, the paradoxes, you know, they're nothing new. We're I mean, you know, we're dealing with high inflation, low unemployment they, they're, they're with us writ large, but take us through the central premise of the book and, and this Both/And Thinking model?
Marianne Lewis 10:13
Sure. So, I'll go one step a little bit before. And because I think you've started to touch on it, Michael is, in the work that we've done with lots of colleagues and we have colleagues globally, we find that there are three factors in the world that intensify the experience of tensions, meaning, (inaudible) are the likelihood you're going to feel caught in a tug of war. And there are three things it's change, scarcity, and plurality, right, the faster tomorrow, today becomes tomorrow, that, that kind of speed, you're talking about. Scarcity, that feeling that you have less to work with and more ex-, higher expectations. And plurality, means multiple stakeholders, and we are in the perfect storm. So, I don't think it's surprising at all, that, as you said, it feels unprecedented, I, I agree. And it might just keep, you know, moving in that direction, that this is the new norm.
Marianne Lewis 11:07
But when I talk about paradoxes, Wendy and I think about this, if, if we think about, say what feels like a dilemma, right, that we do we focus on hitting our targets today? Or do we focus on bold innovation for tomorrow, right?
Marianne Lewis 11:23
That's a classic one that you and I both studied in various ways. That today and tomorrow short-term, long-term Innovation, performance, we don't we tend to think about those as either or, we pull them apart and are trying to do a classic kind of formal logic, let's weigh the pros and cons and decide today, what are we going to focus on. And sometimes there's real value to just good either-or approach. The problem in this case, though, is that those are really in our view two sides of the same coin.
Michael LeBlanc 11:23
Right, -
Marianne Lewis 11:55
So, when we the term paradox, the way we simply define it is more it's interwoven contradictions that persist. So, these are think yin yang, right, that the light informs the dark, it actually shapes each other, they flow into one another, we could make a decision today that you know what, we got to hit the targets, let's just buckle down and focus on production and efficiencies. But we're going to have to face the same question tomorrow or the next day and say, boy, there's a lot of technological change, maybe we better be putting serious investment into innovation. And we're going to we're going to juggle with both sides of those coins ongoing. And really, the if you think about that particular one is a paradox, right?
Marianne Lewis 12:39
Our day-to-day functions are exactly that what funds, the basic R&D, the more radical risky, innovation that we're going to do, you've got to be paying the bills. And at the same time, those radical innovations are going to become your fundamental foundational products of tomorrow. So, that today, and tomorrow really plays off of each other. And we could do the same with lots of other paradoxes that we see quite a bit, you know, global, local. You and I were talking about it a little earlier, the social and financial demands on firms and on our lives, self another. I mean, it's a long list. But the difference to us is, how do you move beyond thinking of this as a trade off to a paradox? And that changes the way we, we play with both sides and their interconnections?
Michael LeBlanc 13:29
It's so interesting, because it, it reminds me of, of interviews I've done recently, Dan Pink, The Power of Regret, Soon Yu, I interviewed last week, the benefits of friction, you know, all us retailers are, -
Marianne Lewis 13:39
Yeah, wonderful, -
Michael LeBlanc 13:40
Taking friction out, right. But he's saying, hey, you know, it's not such a bad thing to slow things down every now and then it feels like what you're saying is that there's a power in mastering these contradictions and recognizing the reality. Talk more about that and, you know, what are some of the tools that you can, you can give that the folks listening can say, you know, I think I can, I can apply this what, what you know, call them a framework or a rubric or a tool, (crossover talk) wha-, what advice to you have?
Marianne Lewis 14:05
Well, I think the first piece is, I think the first part of your question is, you know, the power behind it. We see, paradoxes as a double-edged sword, right? They can be absolutely paralyzing to people, how in the world do I you know, work through the tug of war, but they can that creative friction, we see again, and again, as really positive and powerful. Now, it might be uncomfortable, initially, but it's how you work through that, that friction.
Marianne Lewis 14:33
The example I, I often think of is one of my early studies was with, with Paul Polman at Unilever when he was developing their sustainable living plan. And he would talk all the time about you know, okay, so our are the goals were very clear for him. We're going to double our profit and cut in half our environmental footprint. And everybody would say, you know, Paul, it doesn't work that way, right? And he said, no, we touch 2 billion consumers a day. It has to work that way.
Marianne Lewis 15:00
So, then the question is how, all right, we're announcing a new product, say we're, we're, we're going into, into a community in Africa. Now the question is, how, what's that going to do for the market? How are you going to raise sales? How are you going to grow profit? And at the same time, how will you reduce water, reduce energy, manage transportation, pollution on that side, and he was always trying to push, get the tensions on the table, he would say, if, if people would come to me with a clear cut, oh, we do X, he would say, go, go look harder. Tell me the opposing ways that we could do it tell me every challenge. And it feels uncomfortable, because you might have conflict, you might have to have real debate. But the view is, and I completely agree with Polman on this, we don't have our best selves, if we don't have the variety of options on the table that really push us out of our current thinking.
Marianne Lewis 15:55
So, you asked about the tools, we, we developed something from a lot of work that we've done, and others, we call in the book, the paradox system. And we really think there are four tools for just sake of memory, we, we think about them as A, B, C, D. A is assumptions, B is boundaries, C is comfort, and D is dynamic.
Marianne Lewis 16:17
And if I do it just simply that A for assumptions is about, we need to change our mindset. What do we assume is going on? And how do we question that right off the bat. And the biggest step to this is we have to start changing the questions we ask when we say when we when we build out an either-or question, we say well, should we focus on sustainability or on profit? You've immediately limited your possibilities. Just by the way you frame that question.
Marianne Lewis 16:45
In terms of B, for, of which is boundaries, then it's how do you put a framework around that? So, you're holding them together, you know, I'm using the Polman Unilever example here. But right, he had very specific and obviously, it was a great team at Unilever, they have metrics on both the profitability and the sustainability side. So, every time you went into a new product, or a new growth strategy, you had to complete in a framework, both sides of that equation, to demonstrate it held them together.
Marianne Lewis 17:17
The C is for comfort, and that is because tensions are emotional, they're uncomfortable. And our defensive reaction when we're uncomfortable is to go for something simple, clear and focused, which is nine times out of 10 going to be give me an either or so I can move on. It's just it's short lived and it's limited.
Marianne Lewis 17:38
And then the D for dynamics is, you know, we really push ourselves and others to think about dynamic balancing, because paradoxes aren't going away. You might be solving a problem, but it's, it's not permanent. So, dynamics is about how do you consistently and continually experiment, push the envelope, you know, with Polman and a lot of other leaders we talked to they say one of the challenges of being a paradoxical leader is that people can say, I don't know, are you sending mixed messages, are you waffling? And the, the trick that we've seen from a variety of leaders is, they're very clear, it is both. And I'm going to keep reminding you, we are doing multiple things simultaneously. And today, I might say, I need you to focus on X. But I need you to understand you're focusing on x because tomorrow we're probably going to focus on Y and they go together. And so, it's a consistency but for us the paradox system is a set of tools that we found really helps leaders, teams and organizations work through, navigate these paradoxes.
Michael LeBlanc 18:44
In the book, you've got several examples of, of course being here in Canada I wanted to, to ask you particularly about the Fogo Island example take us through that.
Marianne Lewis 18:52
The Fogo Island example is just a beautiful, Zita Cobb, was a study that actually Wendy did with another colleague and Cobb was really looking at okay, so how do I how do I help a community as people are really leaving Fogo Island it needs an economic rejuvenation, but a community very proud of their roots, understandably so, a really rich tradition from cod fishing to their crafts. And so, they had had lots of debates, I mean, they had started things on Fogo Island, like, you know, a scholarship program and, and Zita had started this herself but then what she found is, wait a minute, it was encouraging for the people of Fogo Island but then they left to go to college and they didn't come back, I need to do something on the island itself.
Marianne Lewis 19:37
So, the Fogo Island Inn is just to me it is a symbol of paradox. She built this remarkably luxurious inn on what she calls one of the four corners of the globe. And it is a combination of the most beautiful high tech, extravagantly, luxurious elements and at the same time, it is there, all the crafts from the bedsheets and, and comforters to the art on the walls is all local. The local members of the community actually serve as hosts for the guests that come to the Fogo Island Inn. And it's this blending of the future and the past and the global possibilities because people come from around the world to the Inn and meet the locals. And as the locals are sharing just the power of that local community and its traditions. So, I, I think it's just a really beautiful example of the ebb and flow of past and present and traditions and innovation,
Michael LeBlanc 20:43
Well, even, even the modern architecture that's nestled into the rugged beauty of, -
Marianne Lewis 20:47
Oh, it's so beautiful, you've seen it too, (crossover talk), all right-
Michael LeBlanc 20:49
Oh, yeah, yeah, my, my brother's actually been there and, and, -
Marianne Lewis 20:51
Oh really, -
Michael LeBlanc 20:52
Has, has gone and, and it was one of his kind of bucket list goals. as it is for me, actually. So, let's talk about something else that worker, I don't know, less so, Brexit, let's talk about Brexit. Was there a better way, I mean, it became a very, I, I'll use another word or framework you have polarized? Well, it wound up one way. I mean, there has been a Brexit was there a better way? I mean, you, you were living there. So, you've got, -
Marianne Lewis 21:17
I was, -
Michael LeBlanc21:18
You've got some very hands on, and you lived in that environment, What's your (inaudible) if they would have had your book then would (inaudible) be in a better place now?
Marianne Lewis 21:26
Well, and it's interesting, because I write in the book of an experienced Mar-, Mario Barroso. So, who is the President of the European Commission came and spoke at, at my business school. And when I was there, and it was it was just after the vote, and I just I had a wonderful dinner, a private dinner with him and some others afterwards. And, and hearing his take on it was fascinating as well. I mean, so, you know, obviously, hindsight is 20/20. And we can look back, but there are a lot of parallels for other political polarizations we see. I mean, I was a newbie, I had started this th-, my dean’s role six months before and, you know, Brexit, the vote is starting to rev up and I am talking to anybody and everybody I can to, to understand, -
Michael LeBlanc 22:07
Yeah, -
Marianne Lewis 22:08
What's at stake here? What are what are the issues how are and oh, it was complex, Michael, I mean, -
Michael LeBlanc 22:13
Yeah, -
Marianne Lewis 22:13
They're the complexities, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 22:14
Urban versus burros, (crossover talk), -
Marianne Lewis 22:16
And the emotions behind it. And similar to some things like, like the US political situation, it, it had polarized to a very, simple, clear, we're leaving or we're staying.
Michael LeBlanc 22:30
Yeah, -
Marianne Lewis22:31
Right, and it and the simplicity around both of those completely negated. What would become I mean; I still think it's 1000s upon 1000s of pages of contracts that they're still working through. And I'm not saying necessarily what the vote happened, but it wasn't it, they never got to a very nuanced, complicated, interesting discussion for the voters let alone within parliament, because it had polarized to this. We, we are leaving because it's patriotic, versus we're staying for the for global leadership, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 23:05
It's economics because it's economics, right?
Marianne Lewis 23:06
Right, and economics. And it was it was much more than that. I mean, the, the more people I spoke to about it, the more I thought, I would love to hear us have a real debate around all of the complexities and nuances. This isn't us, it, it wasn't as simple as it was. And, and the, the story I tell in this book, I just oh my gosh, I remember it like it was yesterday.
Marianne Lewis 23:31
Two, two of the people who had helped me just better understand that the intricacies of Brexit, were two of my board members at it was the Cass Business School it was recently named Bayes Business School. So, and these two leaders were on both sides of the debate. And were incredibly bri-, brilliant business leaders and could explain lots of reasons and complications of why they felt that it, it when you have to come to a vote, this is why they wanted one or the other, okay.
Marianne Lewis 24:04
And so, I understood from their view the two, they're, they're two different votes. And so, we are walking after Mario, Barroso had, had spoken and I'm walking kind of between them. And one of the gentlemen says to Manuel Barroso, he says, well, I mean, those people who voted to leave are ignorant, racist, I can't remember the slew of expletives he used. And I'm sitting here next to the other gentleman who I know who was that person and wasn't anything that this man just said, I mean, just nothing. It was and without even batting an eye, Jose Manuel Barroso just looks at him and smiles and said, it is such a complicated issue, I'm sorry, we couldn't have had richer discussions. Let's have that con-, conversation more at dinner.
Marianne Lewis 24:56
And as he said it I th-, I thought I was going to have a fist (crossover talk). And instead, the, the other gentleman smiled and laughed, and he said something like, spoken like a true statesman. And then we proceeded to have a really intellectual, fascinating and challenging dinner conversation. But it made me think I would like I, I would hope that we can open ourselves to have more of those conversations. Because there's a rar-, it's a rare political decision., that isn't complicated, right?
Michael LeBlanc 25:29
Right, right –
Marianne Lewis25:30
There isn't nuance, -
Michael LeBlanc 25:31
They are they are by their, by their nature, right? (Crossover talk), -
Marianne Lewis 25:32
They are by their nature, -
Michael LeBlanc25:34
They're very few, clear cut. Yes, everyone wants action on climate change. But , -
Marianne Lewis 25:39
Of course, -
Michael LeBlanc25:40
You know, there's lots of stakeholders and lots of different ways to approach it. And now, I, I have to ask you, were you convinced one way or the other? I mean, you can you're now sitting safely in Cincinnati. So, were you convinced one way or the other? Was that the right thing to do or did you even form an opinion?
Marianne Lewis 25:56
I, I mean, because I don't know that I formed a full com-, opinion. I mean, I thought it was very risky to leave, because of the host of ec-, economic (inaudible), but also very (inaudible). I mean, there was so many reasons to. to stay, including the original reasons of why the European was developed in the first place, which was, which wa-, much more about political stability, and economic stability in the region to avoid what, you know, World War III. But I don't know that I would take a stance on that, because I certainly I did understand the very real concerns by, by a number of people who felt that it was time to leave. And, and some did that, under the great hopes that it could help mobilize needed change in the European Union, whether that happens or not, is a, is a different story, too.
Michael LeBlanc 26:46
Yeah, it feels, feels like there's another actor that's pretty prominent in driving change in that right now.
Marianne Lewis 26:50
I think so, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 26:52
Let's bring this conversation home for the retailer. So, -
Marianne Lewis 26:54
Sure, -
Michael LeBlanc 26;55
You know, listen, they're constantly we're constantly vexed by customers who want everything, won’t pay for, say one thing, do something different give me, you, you know, you've, you've given us a great framework A, B, C, D. But give me any words of wisdom or advice for the retailers listening about how they can approach this paradox within your model.
Marianne Lewis 27:11
I, I, I think if there were three kinds of steps to take, and I and I've seen them in, in a variety of ways, I'll give you an example in a minute. But I would say you need to change the question. You know, de-, whatever debate it is that feels like a tug of war, find an and question there, then separate and connect, can you pull apart both elements and really dig down to understand the value of each side, and their limitations that have taken to an extreme, and then find their connections?
Marianne Lewis 27:42
And then lastly, take it decisions that let you stay agile and continue to learn and adapt. The retail example and, and it's I'm stretching it maybe to be retail, but my, my board chair in London was Muhtar Kent, who at the time was the chair of Coca Cola, CEO and Chair of Coca Cola. And one of the paradoxes that we would often talk about is the global/local tension, -
Michael LeBlanc 28:07
Sure, sure, -
Marianne Lewis28:09
Because, you know, Coke is, was we're always working to be the they're one of the most visible brands in the world, right? Leveraging that scale, making sure that they're being auth-, authentic. And if you've ever been to the Coca Cola Museum in Atlanta, you know, they have hundreds, if not 1000s of flavors and tastes, because local variations matter and being respectful, right? So, how do you pull apart, okay, we want to make sure that we want to leverage our global brand, so that we respect, honor and support local variations, right? He would, he would talk about different ways that you could be both because he didn't want to ever water down the global red can and at the same time, wanted to make sure whether it was their supply chains, their retailers on the ground, or the actual tastes of the product worked in the local markets. And how do you play those? And he would, you know, pull those apart and really think about what's the value of the of the brand? What's the value of scale? And what's the limitation? If you take it too far? Who do you, who do you negate, who do you marginalize?
Marianne Lewis 29:15
And at the same on the flip side, yes, local matters, and how do you build those variations? But if you take that too far, you've lost the opportunities to build efficiencies that keep it priced within range, whatever the market, right? So, playing about both of those, and you know, I love a leader like Muhtar and so many others. They have this confident humility that yes, I'm going to make a decision today and, and we're probably going to adjust tomorrow because times change quickly, the shelf everything from shelving to supply chains to how we market in the metaverse. It's all going to continue changing, so we're going to stay agile in that process.
Michael LeBlanc 29:55
Well, my guest is Maryanne Lewis. The book is, Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tension to Solve Your Toughest Problems is available wherever you love to buy your books, Marianne, what's the best way to keep up with what you what you're working on and what you're doing? Are you a LinkedIn person, what's the best way to follow what you are doing?
Marianne Lewis 30:11
I am, I am on, I'm all, LinkedIn, I would say is probably the best or Twitter. You can find the book on Amazon, but really any of your local bookstores as well. And I just appreciate the chance Michael to, to speak with you, great questions that always provoke my thinking.
Michael LeBlanc 30:26
Well, it's a great discussion. I really was looking forward to it and I wish you continued success and recommend I've had I've had the chance to have a copy of the early release of the book and I'd recommend to anybody listening.
Marianne Lewis 30:37
Thank you very much.
Michael LeBlanc 30:38
And (inaudible) essential reading in these times, as in others. So, once again, listen, have a great rest of your day and, and weekend. And thanks again for joining me on The Voice of Retail podcast.
Marianne Lewis 30:49
Great. Thank you, Michael.
Michael LeBlanc 30:50
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure and click and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week.
Michael LeBlanc 31:00
And check out my other retail industry media properties, the Remarkable Retail podcast, Conversations with CommerceNext podcast and The Food Professor podcast with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my all-new YouTube barbecue show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week.
Michael LeBlanc 31:19
I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company and Maven Media. And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co.
Have a safe week everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
paradox, book, tensions, Fogo Island, Marianne, Michael, feels, question, talk, people, academic, innovation, sides, leaders, Brexit, Cincinnati, thinking, studying, Wendy