In this episode, meet Phyl Terry, as we catch up and share experiences going back 25 years together in the eCommerce usability field and talking about his new book, Never Search Alone. Based on 25 years of experience working with thousands of leaders, the book provides a time-tested, multi-step process to find the right job now – one that sits at the intersection of hopes, dreams, and market realities.
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
In this episode, meet Phyl Terry, as we catch up and share experiences going back 25 years together in the eCommerce usability field and talking about his new book, Never Search Alone. Based on 25 years of experience working with thousands of leaders, the book provides a time-tested, multi-step process to find the right job now – one that sits at the intersection of hopes, dreams, and market realities.
Learn more about Slow Art Day
Thanks for tuning into this special episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven’t already, be sure and click subscribe on your favourite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week, and check out my other retail industry media properties; the Remarkable Retail podcast, the Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and the Food Professor podcast. Last but not least, if you are into BBQ, check out my all new YouTube barbecue show, Last Request Barbeque, with new episodes each and every week!
I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company & Maven Media, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co! Have a safe week everyone!
I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company & Maven Media, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co! Have a safe week everyone!
About Phyl
Phyl Terry, Founder and CEO of Collaborative Gain, Inc., launched the company’s flagship leadership program – The Councils – in 2002 with a fellow group of Internet pioneers from Amazon, Google, and others. Thousands of leaders from the Internet world have come together in the last 15 years to learn the art of asking for help and to support each other to build better, more customer-centric products, services, and companies (see their testimonials).
Phyl has also spent close to three decades as a pioneer and leader in customer experience. As CEO of Creative Good for 15 years, Phyl and the team ran hundreds of consulting projects helping companies like Apple, Facebook, and the New York Times build digital experiences that delight customers. Phyl also co-authored Customers Included, the book widely praised for its practical and passionate focus on building better businesses, and is currently writing his second book on the art of asking for help, which will be published by the Harvard Business School Press (see his previous HBR article and TEDx talk.
As a speaker, Phyl has given hundreds of keynotes and featured talks at events like the Harvard Business School Distinguished Speaker Series, National Retail Federation conferences, Forbes, Inc. Magazine, TEDx and for private corporations such as Apple, American Express, eBay, Fidelity, Google, Intuit, Walmart, and many others. See a list of companies and conferences where he’s spoken (and some testimonials and a 3 minute video about his talk). Phyl has been profiled and quoted extensively in publications like the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times and named by Fast Company as one of the Fast Company 100 – 100 leaders shaping the 21st century.
In his spare time they founded and run three pro-bono programs – Slow Art Day, Reading Odyssey, and the Warren Buffett Reading Group.
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience and has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated on thought leadership panels worldwide. Michael was recently added to ReThink Retail’s prestigious Top 100 Global Retail Influencers for a second year in 2022.
Michael is also the producer and host of a network of leading podcasts, including Canada’s top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail, plus the Remarkable Retail with author Steve Dennis, Global E-Commerce Tech Talks and The Food Professor with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Most recently, Michael launched Conversations with CommerceNext, a podcast focussed on retail eCommerce, digital marketing and retail careers - all available on Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music and all major podcast platforms. Michael is also the producer and host of the “Last Request Barbeque” channel on YouTube where he cooks meals to die for and influencer riches.
Michael LeBlanc 00:05
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with the Retail Council of Canada.
Michael LeBlanc 00:11
In this episode, I catch up with longtime friend and colleague Phyl Terry sharing reflections going back 25 years in the eCommerce usability field, and exploring Phyl's new book, Never Search Alone, based on 25 years of experience working with 1000s of leaders. The book provides a time tested, multi-stepped process to find the right job now, one that sits at the intersection of hopes, dreams and market realities.
Phyl Terry 00:33
This book isn't me sitting in a room thinking big thoughts, oh I'm smart, let me tell you what to do. This book is based on 20 years of working with 1000s of people and then hundreds of them using the book and applying it. I really, I really wanted to do it that way. So, there's three big ideas that carry most of the weight. Let's, let's make sure your readers understand that. The first is the title of the book, Never Search Alone. That idea is hey, you know, yes, look at when, you know, networking, you know, resume, LinkedIn, negotiating. All these things are important. But it turns out, the most important thing you need to manage in your job search is your emotional balance.
Michael LeBlanc 01:14
Phil, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast, my friend. How are you?
Phyl Terry 01:18
I'm good, Michael, it's great to be here with you.
Michael LeBlanc 01:21
Well, you and I have known each other, I was counting, since the late 90s. Back in the Go-Go days. And it's been my pleasure to kind of keep track of what you've been up to, always so interesting. So, it's wonderful to hear your voice. And, and thanks again for joining me.
Phyl Terry 01:36
I'm glad to be here. I'm excited. Michael, my new book, Never Search Alone is out after six years of hard work. And we'll get into it. But really, I appreciate you inviting me.
Michael LeBlanc 01:49
But let's, let's jump right in. Let's talk about you. I mean, when you and I first met, at least I was in the dot com trying to figure out things like usability and customer focus. And that's where we, you and I and I intersected. But -
Phyl Terry 02:02
That's right, -
Michael LeBlanc 02:04
For the folks, for the folks listening give us a bit of a personal and professional journey. And, and you are up to so many things. So, we could spend a half hour just talking about all the things you're involved in, but give us the Coles Notes, so to speak of who you are and what you do.
Phyl Terry 02:15
Yeah, sure. Yeah sure, I'm happy to do that. And I'll just briefly say that this, this book is this new book Never Search Alone is, is, is both an extension and departure from where I've come from. I think that's, you know, an interesting thing I think you're probably digging into, but you and I met in the, in the 90s. I had been a part of the first startup team that Amazon of, you know, the company first startup that Amazon bought, a company no one's ever heard of anymore. It was called, PlanetAll and they were, we were actually the first what, you know, if we didn't know what we were doing? We, if we had realized we were building the first LinkedIn. We might have hung in there.
Michael LeBlanc 03:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah, -
Phyl Terry 03:03
But we sold it to Amazon. And then, you know, I had created a Council of internet CEOs when I was at Harvard Business School with McKinsey, it's really the first kind of private peer forum in the very early internet world. And then later, you know, after the startup, I then partnered with a good friend and, and built a customer experience consulting firm, Creative Good. I was the CEO of that for 15 years, we were pioneers in customer experience in the internet world. When we started, there were literally, there was literally maybe one other firm kind of thinking about those questions. And when I sold the business 15 years later, there were, you know, 1000s and 1000s, you know, software firms, consulting agencies, design firms, but we were pioneers. And (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 03:59
for those listening, you know, for that maybe they let's say the younger executives I hear folks listening, I mean, back in the early days, of dot com, I always equated it to the early days of automobiles, like every automobile worked differently, like the gas pedal was left, right or center. And that's how dot com worked like you'd go to a different site. And every checkout was different. And you had to figure out every site like those were those were interesting, chaotic, but, you know, necessary days, but it's so different back then than it is today, right?
Phyl Terry 04:28
Well, I loved being at, you know, sort of at the very beginning of things, which by the way is where I think I am with this book, Never Search Alone, which we'll, we'll get back to, but the job search has not been disrupted in 50 years. And I, I think we're on the on the precipice of a big change there. But yeah, in the early days off the internet, yeah, everything was bespoke. Everything was custom and in fact, Michael, you might laugh at this like, I was literally one of the first people to, to teach retailers that if there was something important called a conversion rate.
Michael LeBlanc 05:06
Yeah, I remember that (crossover talk) who cares, I just, I just want to buy an ad for the Super Bowl? Isn't that going to get me where I need to go?
Phyl Terry 05:13
Exactly, exactly. And, you know, I'll never forget, like, we went into Gateway Computers, which, again, your listeners if they're younger won't know, but they had been a pioneer in, you know, custom made computers along with Dell direct order. And they were neck and neck with Dell at the time, you know, they've since gone away. But, you know, we went in and said, hey, you know, conversion rates are important, and your customers are completely confused. And we boosted conversion rate by 40% and that project generated $100 million in the first year in incremental revenue, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 05:51
I hope you had a percentage growth deal on that one, but you probably didn't, right.
Phyl Terry 05:54
You know, Michael, I tried. They did not want to give me that and I tried after that. We ended up you know, we were, we worked with Apple, Facebook, you know, we did, we did 500 no, excuse me, 400 projects, almost every leading retailer software firm out there for those 15 years, it was a great ride. But along the way, I started this thing. So, when I was at business school in the 90s, I created that CEO Council and then in the early 2000s, I created the, The Councils for Internet executives. It started with Google and Amazon and Travelocity back in 2002. This is actually the 20th anniversary 20 years; we've had 1000s of senior executives come through The Councils. It's a pretty simple program. We simply put leaders together in non-competing companies in small forums and, and teach them to ask for help. Now, again, when I did this in 2002, nobody else was doing this, certainly not in the internet world. And certainly no one had done anything like it for VP, GM level folks.
Michael LeBlanc 07:01
Now un-, un -, unpack, unpack that a little for us, because what you said there is very interesting. So, it's not unusual to have groups together for networking or for associations, but you have a very particular vent. And of course, it's a thread that runs through the book that asks for help, unpack that for the listeners.
Phyl Terry 07:18
Sure, and just yes, just so the listeners know, and you know, Michael, you and I, we met I think in the context of shop.org. And, you know, in the in the late 90s shop.org was a couple 100 people, (inaudible) each other in the early days of web and eCommerce, you know, today it's 1000s. And I said, you know, hey, we need a private environment, where you know, a small group, ten, twelve people where a leader can really be open, vulnerable, and ask for help. And you know, where you can really address what I call the knowing, doing gap, you can know that it's important to be vulnerable, you can know that it's important to ask for help, which I've been an evangelists my entire career, (inaudible) whether it's asking for help from customers, or asking for help from peers, or asking for help in this case, you know, from the (inaudible) your network in the marketplace, when we get when we get to my book in the in the job search. Big fan of asking for help is transformative.
Phyl Terry 08:02
My mother taught me it. My mother, whose nickname was chick, started actually, the first council in 1960, in the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles, where she brought elementary school teachers together to ask for help from each other. And they met for 50 years five-0, 50 years.
Michael LeBlanc 08:29
Wow, wow, -
Phyl Terry 08:31
Until the year before she died. And she was a pioneer, Michael, I mean, no one else, no one else was doing it Vistage, which is for CEOs today. YPO for CEOs, no one else was doing private peer forums when my mom invented that in 1960. And so, I grew up learning about it from her.
Phyl Terry 08:49
So, I started my first peer council in college for progressive student leaders of different organizations. I was running the anti-apartheid movement, you know, others running, you know, gay and lesbian or women's organizations. And then as I mentioned at business school with McKinsey, I helped set up this Internet Business Forum for CEOs.
Phil Terry 09:11
And then in the early 2000s, I started the council. And we've had several 1000 people come through the program, every single internet company out there, VP, GM, COO, CEO, very strong in product and CX not a surprise, given my background. And two years ago, we started a new program for young women and people of color and LGBTQ in the product in UX, who are in their early career, you know, an individual contributor may be a first-time manager, we call that the Associate Counsel and it is going incredibly well, really powerful. We've got a great lineup of companies in their Apple, you know, Target Walmart, you know, a bunch of retailers, you know, uncommon goods, smaller folks, software companies. Anyway, so, yes, and through this entire thread runs asking for help, asking for help asking for help. It's really, it's hard to do, but it is transformative. It's the most important thing you can do in your career. And I talk about this in Never Search Alone, because I'm telling people they need to ask for help in their job search, of course.
Michael LeBlanc 10:11
Well, let's get started, I want to ask you a couple of questions before we get to the book. We spend a lot of time on the book. And I do think it is one of the most interesting books I've ever read in this space just because you, you're underselling it a little bit. Because you're, you know, it's not a book about just asking for help you put a structure together, it's not just opining about a strategy, it is a roadmap, like you just it's a guidebook, I mean, you just follow the book, (crossover talk), -
Phyl Terry 10:36
Yeah, I feel so strongly about that, I wanted this, as I say in the book, you know, it's like a cookbook, right? You get the calories from actually cooking, you can't not just read. So, (inaudible) people thought I can actually follow, and I have a whole bunch of tools, they can also download for free. But anyway, we got to, before we get to the book, you're gonna say something else.
Michael LeBlanc 10:56
Well, tell, tell us a little bit about Slow Art Day, you're involved in a lot of other interesting things. But when you know, following you on social media, one of the most intriguing things and wonderful things that you do is Slow Art Day. Tell us a little bit about that.
Phyl Terry 11:09
Yeah. Well, you know, Michael, Steve Jobs when he was still alive, I mean, you know, people quote him a lot. But one of the things he did truly believe and, and talked about was the, the importance of visual art in spurring creativity, and design, and innovation and new ways of thinking. And so, you know, I, I took that seriously. But there, there was a big problem. And so, you know, a lot of my work, what it ties together is that, you know, is that I, I try to come up with a new way, a new environmental design, if you will, to challenge long standing problems, right. So, whether that's customer experience in business, whether that's the job search, and how to think about your career, which again, it hasn't in my opinion it hasn't been thought about in any serious way for maybe ever, -
Michael LeBlanc 12:01
Certainly in any new way, certainly in any new way. And, -
Phyl Terry 12:03
With any new way, yes. It's not just (inaudible), I mean, everything we have today is a, is a digital version of the analog process so it's been around for 50 or 100 years.
Michael LeBlanc 12:11
Yeah, -
Phyl Terry 12:12
And those, and those are great. LinkedIn is a great tool, but it doesn't, it doesn't address the fundamental problems, how to find a really good job. And, and many people get very frustrated with the fact they can't, they can't seem to find a really good job that they love, and, and that really accelerates their career. But when it comes to art, like, you know, here's the thing, Michael, you know, people can intellectually recognize that art and visual art is important for creativity and design. But the average person who goes to an art museum, and that already is a select group, because most people don't go to art museums. So, we're talking already about a minority of people (inaudible) spending five to seven seconds looking at an individual piece of art. And that my friend is not enough to see anything. And in fact, half the time is spent reading the card describing the art and the artists. So, -
Michael LeBlanc 13:01
That's true, -
Phyl Terry
I said, listen, we can't just tell people to look at art longer, because they're not going to, it's not set up for that. And in fact, museums were in a mode at the time of pushing people quickly through an exit through the gift shop. In fact, there's a famous documentary called, ‘The Exit Through The Gift Shop’, -
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah, yeah, -
Phyl Terry 13:17
It talks about that dynamic. So, I said, Listen, this is a well-known problem, but no one's done anything about it. So, I launched this movement called Slow Art Day, where every year in April, I pick it. I pick the day every year and me and a team of volunteers from around the world support museums to run their own local events. And what they do is they pick five pieces of art that people come and look at for 10 minutes of each individual piece of art, and then have a conversation about it. And this thing has just expanded enormously. By the way, the Art Gallery of Ontario, one of the preeminent museums, of course in Canada is a longtime partner in Slow Art Day. But you know, we, I mean, 1000s of museums all over the world on every single continent, Michael, including Antarctica, at the McMurdo Station there, if you can believe it, runs a Slow Art Day.
Michael LeBlanc 14:08
Incredible, -
Phyl Terry 14:08
And it's turned into this wonderful movement. And it's really, you know, it's making an impact. It's helping people learn how to slow down and really see and that has so many implications, way beyond business, but if you're in business, you should run Slow Art Day sessions with your teams, with your product and design and, and business teams so they can learn you know, something about you know, and get the spark of creativity that Jobs was, was talking about. I
Michael LeBlanc 14:37
I was, I was at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam a couple of weeks ago and I've always internalized not always but since you've started this, I've internalized that idea. So, I just sat in front of the Night Watch for, for, for a good half hour. It's one of my favorite paintings.
Phyl Terry 14:52
What a great painting. What a great painting, -
Michael LeBlanc 14:54
Right, like it just there's just so much going on. And, and I love that painting. It's now suspended in three dimensions like, it's really just so interesting. And, and you know, I kind of get what you said, you know (inaudible), you spend as much time sometimes reading the notecard about the painting than you do the painting, you know, it's certainly, it's really a very acute observation. All right, so (inaudible), and I'm going to put links to all of this stuff in the show notes so people can go, (crossover talk), explore, -
Phyl Terry 15:18
And I'll just say one thing for your listeners, there's a very simple, slow looking algor-, algorithm that they can follow on their own. So, you know, go to a museum with your family, or two, or three friends, or whatever it is. And it doesn't have to be Slow Art Day (inaudible) and you know, just in each gallery that you visit, pick up what I call a selector, pick a selector. All of you spend a couple of minutes walking around, do quick looking, that's fine. The selectors job is to pick one piece that all of you are going to look at for 10 minutes. So, after the first couple of minutes in the gallery, the selector says, okay, we're going to walk, we're going to look at Night Watch, whatever, we're going to look at, you know, the, the, you know, The Harvesters, which is a fantastic painting, -
Michael LeBlanc 15:59
Yeah, -
Phyl Terry 15:59
In the, in the Met, whatever it might be. And then you all look for 10 minutes. And then and then you simply say, okay, what did you see, and let people talk, people love this experience, they love it, they, you can't stop them from talking. And then you go to the next gallery, and you pick a different selector, and you spend a couple minutes looking around, and that selector picks a piece, it doesn't matter what, and you spend 10 minutes looking at it and having a conversation. And let me tell you, if you do that, you will have an amazing museum experience, -
Michael LeBlanc 16:31
Yeah, -
Phyl Terry 16:31
Way better than anything you've ever done before, and you won't leave tired, you're going to leave energized and excited. And with some, you know, some of the neurons bouncing around in your brain in new ways.
Michael LeBlanc 16:42
Yeah, it's really transformational when you just, as, you just articulate that whole process, it's fantastic. Alright, a quick question before we get to the, to the meat and potatoes of the book. You know, you spent your early part of the career helping people figure out, let's call it usability, your UX or customers and looking back or looking ahead, I don't know what direction I'm going. Do you think we're as far down that in terms of solving that as you thought we might be 25 years later? I mean, you laid out some basic principles in the late 90s, which were at the time, but you know, as you as you, -
Phyl Terry 17:16
Yeah, -
Michael LeBlanc 17:17
As you, as you sit today, you know, maybe you're doing online shopping yourself, or you're walking through stores, or you're doing a doctor's appointment, or whatever. Do you think we'd be farther along? Are you happy with the relative process or, or progress in terms of what you started out with in your career?
Phyl Terry 17:29
Great question and I have to say, my answer is both. I am both frustrated with the pace of change and excited with the pace of change. Let me explain what I'm saying. So, for a long time, it felt like nothing was changing. I'm like beating my head against the wall. And then, in the late 2000s, a new crop of startups came along, that had comple-, had customer experience baked into their DNA. Airbnb is a great example. You know, there are a few issues with the Airbnb website and, and customer experience. I mean, there will always be with any company.
Michael LeBlanc 18:03
Sure, -
Phyl Terry 18:04
Fundamentally, they saw a need, they solved it, they've created a great online experience. They've done that well. So, you know, there's a famous saying in science, that basically, "science advances one funeral at a time". I think that business advances, one, you know, one company funeral at a time, right? So, a lot of the companies, you know, the older companies, just they cannot get their heads around this. A few have been able to, but most can't. And they're either dead or dying. You know, there are some major retailers, I won't name them, who frankly, I think should just be gone at this point. They have, they you know, they haven't done anything new for the customer experience since the 1960s, right. And so, you know, they can't get, you know, out of their own way. I generally don't take a job with a company like that, right. You're going to be much better off working with a company that invests in and this is, you know, as you know that I have this structured time tested process in the book for how to look for a job, including how to evaluate the culture, the product, the strategy, the CX of the company, before you join, -
Michael LeBlanc 19:25
Never Search Alone: The Job Seekers Playbook. So, first of all, let's talk about the tradecraft because you didn't just sit down in a quiet room and write this book, talk about, you know, the, the tradecraft the, the, what did you say in the book 400 revisions, this is like it's like WD 40, right. This is, is 401 version, and talk about the tradecraft of pulling the insights together that formed this book.
Phyl Terry 19:49
Well, it would be hypocritical of me as a longtime customer experience evangelist, right if I didn't apply that methodology to the writing of my book. I had to do that right. Like I, I wasn't going to be able to write a book. Now I had, you know, I mentioned earlier that I run these Councils where it brings senior leaders and now, you know, a group of early career leaders and product UX together. Well, for 20 years, I had been coaching these leaders, because they would come to me, you know, they, the Councils' is to help them do their jobs better and help them learn from each other. But inevitably, either they get laid off, they leave a job, or they'd hit a crossroads. And they come to me. And I started, you know, helping them think about their job in a new way. And I was very, very frustrated, again, with the fact that that, literally, Mike, I don't think this is an understatement. I don't think anyone has sat down, sat down for decades and said, you know, how should you look for a job? Or how should you develop your career in any serious way? There's a bunch of tools out there. But no one has said conceptually, how should this process work? And certainly no one has done it since the internet and product customer revolution, right.
Phyl Terry 21:01
So, you know, for example, one of the, one of the big ideas in the book is candidate-market fit. If product- market fit drives business success, candidate-market fit drives career success. In other words, you need to think about both what you want and how the market sees you. When you're in a job search, you're the product, and you have to do some research, just like you absolutely have to do research, if you're, you know, developing a website and mobile app or whatever it is you're doing. But that's like a fundamental thing that's missing from the process. And no one had actually thought about that.
Phyl Terry 21:43
So, I had started developing that with all of these leaders. And then I said, I got to write this book. Like, you know, I actually, originally, I sat down to write a book about asking for help, and about career councils, what, what the kinds of things we do today for members in jobs. But I realized as I was writing, like, Oh, my God, there's this huge unmet need. As I was saying, no one has really looked at this process. And so, , I, I did 250 interviews, before I started writing 250 interviews. You can appreciate what that means as a podcast, that's a lot of interviews, right? I talked to CEOs, I talked a lot of CEOs, I talked to Fortune 5, Fortune 50, CEOs, I talked to Fortune 500 CEOs, I talked to start-up CEOs, tech CEOs, software CEOs, I talked to VPs of product, GMs, I talked to VPs of customer experience I talked to, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 22:24
in, in all that, did the thread of insight happen over time, like sometimes when I do a lot of interviews together, I write a quarterly report on retail, and after the 20th interview, the, the, the 80/90% of my narrative is built. And then the rest of the interviews basically substantiate what I was thinking, but sometimes, you know, at 200, is it like I did it come as an epiphany, or did it happen over time? Or did it come in the first 10? And then the other 109 kind of reinforced it? How was that? How was that process?
Phyl Terry 22:56
So, you know, running customer research, you know, we ran 400 projects for companies, again, like Apple and Facebook and others. And we experienced what you described, right? The first 10 really set you know, stage, most of the key insights, and then the rest of validate. In this process that was true for a key insight in the book around asking for help. And that key insight was that if you're already a senior executive, C-level, executive CEO, board member, because I also interviewed board members and such, then actually along the way, you've gotten over the stigma of asking for help, and you've learned to do it some way or another. It's actually and you credit that with propelling you forward.
Phyl Terry 23:35
However, and if that was true for 85% of the people I interviewed at C-level or above, if you are below, especially at the director level or below, 85% of those people had not yet learned to ask for help. And saw some stigma or, or at least didn't feel like they have the time to do it, right. So, that insight like, came early on and was just reinforced and reinforced 100 Times.A couple other key things came out, right, which is that people, people don't think or do any kind of research. But it took me a long time, Michael. It took me maybe four years before I finally figured out that, oh my god, what we're talking about here is candidate-market fit that was analogous to product-market fit. It like hit me over the head one morning, I felt like I missed that. How did that take me four years to figure out, right, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 24:29
Now, wait, wait, wait, were you having a coffee or were in the shower? I mean, where did that, (crossover talk), epiphany spike, -
Phyl Terry 24:35
I was in that liminal phase between awake and asleep? That is so creative. It literally like that voice in my head like woke me up, candidate-market fit, you know, there are three big ideas in the book that carry most of the weight and as you met, there's a five-step time tested process, you know, that I've tested and by the way, (crossover talk), -
Michael LeBlanc 24:56
You like fives by the way, right? You like fives, I like threes. You like a lot of fives, I noticed everything's five for you.
Phyl Terry 25:02
I do. I know, I know, (inaudible) teaches you to do threes. But I've gotten two fives for some reason. But I'll just add one more thing. And then I'll talk about the five steps and, and, and help your readers get a sense of what this book is all about. And the three big ideas, but I did.So, I had 2000 people I coached. I had 250 people I interviewed before the writing started. And then while I was drafting, I had 200, actually about 250. I say 200 in the book, but it was, it ended up being about 250 people who were looking for a job, read early drafts of the book and gave me collectively 2500 comments that drove 400 major and minor drafts to this day. And so, I think it may be the single most tested book ever written.
Michael LeBlanc 25:53
Talk about the wisdom of the crowd, right? I mean, it, it really pulls, (crossover talk), it pulls that together, -
Phyl Terry 25:58
Listen, this book, this book (inaudible) me sitting in a room thinking big thoughts. Let me tell you what to do. This book is based on 20 years of working with 1000s of people and then hundreds of them using the book and applying it.
Michael LeBlanc 26:12
By the way, which by the way, if you wrote a book like that, it would still be a bestseller, because you've got (inaudible) experience. But the way you did it, is, is let's just say on brand, that's for sure.
Phyl Terry 26:21
Yeah, I really, I really wanted to do it that way. So, there's three big ideas that carry most of the weight. Let's, let's, make sure your readers understand that. The first is the title of the book, Never Search Alone. That idea is hey, you know, yes, look at when, when you know, networking, you know, resume, LinkedIn negotiating, all these things are important.
Phyl Terry 26:25
But it turns out, the most important thing you need to manage in your job search is your emotional balance. We all and this is true, Michael, this is true. Like, you know, literally I have coached and worked with CEOs of internet companies who have sold other companies that had great exits are extremely well respected. But when they're thinking or they're being recruited, like let's say into a later stage company, or whatever, they're feeling the insecurity and anxiety that we all feel in the job search, right. And it turns out, so you, the most important thing you need to manage in the job search is your emotional balance. And because we're a social species, if you form a mutual support group, what I call a job search council of other job seekers, you guys can come together with your anxiety and insecurity.
Phyl Terry 26:33
And just by sharing that converted into hope, motivation, accountability and confidence, it is really, really, really powerful. So, that’s the first idea, never search alone, set up a job search Council and mutual support group.The second idea we talked about, you know, if product-market fit drives business success, candidate-market it drives career success. So, you need to go out and precisely define through a process, I give you both what you want, and how the market sees you, right? And let me just say a few things about that.
Phyl Terry 26:41
First of all, most of us don't know what we want. And I understand that the book, I say, that's why you have to go through an (inaudible) process of drafting out thinking about what you want talking to people, I, I you have to go on a listening tour, as I outlined in the book to see how the market sees you will also get feedback from others who know you about helping you see what maybe what you want. And then at the end of that process, you end up with this wonderful clarity.
Phyl Terry 26:47
So, I’ll tell the story in the book about Deedee. So, Deedee had been a chief data officer at a public company she left, decided she wanted to become a CTO, spent a year spinning her wheels got, got lots of interviews, but no offers, right? She finally came to me, and I said, oh, okay, Dee, first of all, let's get you in a mutual support group. Let's get you on the job search Council. So, she did that right away, and said here's a draft of my book, start reading. And then let's get you on a listening tour. Let's find out your candidate-market fit, right. So, she knew she wanted a CTO job. So, that part was done again, many people don't know exactly what they want, but she did in this case. So, she went out and spoke to people and one of the things I do is I say speak to recruiters.
Phyl Terry 27:03
And, and what you do with recruiters is very different from what most people do with recruiters at this stage of the process that I outline in the book. At this stage, you're not asking them for a job, you're asking for their advice, for their expertise. Recruiters love this because nobody, you know, candidates always approach recruiters and say I want this, get it for me. Why don't you get it for me or get frustrated? No, no actually recruiter, what do you think? And I give you three questions. What, what job do you think I could get tomorrow? What's in the ballpark, but might be a stretch and what's beyond my ability to get today? And -
Michael LeBlanc 29:41
I love that third question, by the way. That's a powerful, that's a powerful question.
Phyl Terry 29:45
A really powerful question. And so she came, the recruiter said to her look, you're not a candidate for a classic CTO role. I would never think of you that way. You're outside you know, the ballpark for that. But there's a new trend of some companies hiring CTOs with data science and data management backgrounds. And for that, you are a perfect fit and bam, she got her candidate-market fit, and within three weeks had three offers. And so, you know, it takes the big, the big obstacle that job seekers have is, I say, listen, slow down, set up a mutual support group, and then a job search counsel and then go do some research.
Phyl Terry 30:01
And people are like, no, no, I got to get a job. Now even by the way, even when they have money, I say, how much money do you have? You know, I'm fine. I'm good. I can say, well, listen, this is a go slow to go fast process, right? Again, Slow Art Day plays a nice role here. Rolling down is a powerful way to actually, you know, really do something. And so, you slow down at first, but it ends up being faster and better in the long run. And this, you know, this.
Phyl Terry 30:16
And then the third big idea is that there's four legs to the negotiation tool, four legs, not just compensation, compensation is important. And, and not enough people negotiate comp, although that's changed in the last several years, which is great. But there are three more legs to that stool, there's budget, resources, and support. In other words, there's what you need to succeed in that job. And nobody does this. Nobody does this, okay. But if you do it, it's actually even more important than comp. Because if you do it and you get set up to succeed, everything changes in the trajectory of your career.
Phyl Terry 30:24
I'll give you a quick A, B example. Two people, one was a there were both Chief Product Officers slash Chief Technology Officers in the software world. And they were both experienced in that CPO slash CTO role, okay. Both are getting offers, which is great. Both knew their candidate-market fit, but one negotiated budget, resources and support and the other didn't. Here's what happened. The first one got an offer from a private equity backed software company. And during the interview process, and again, I go through this in the book, how to evaluate, he figured out they had about $20 million in tech debt, technical debt. And I'm sure your listeners understand that term. It basically means old systems that are not reliable, and that are really holding the business back that you need to bring up to speed. So, you can start to do innovation and new product development.
Phyl Terry 30:59
So, I said, Listen, you've got to talk to the CEO on board and get their sign off as part of the offer negotiation, that they're going to write you a check day one for $20 million to ease that tech down. He's like, Oh, my God, you're right. So, he goes in, he speaks to them. And they agree, day one, they write the check. 20 million dollars. Six months later, tech debt is retired, and he can turn his attention to a new product development. He does that and it's really successful. A year later, the company gives him an additional, you know, a GM responsibility to P&L responsibility to run a division of the business, big deal And then six months after that, they are interviewing him for the CEO role.
Michael LeBlanc 31:21
Wow really accelerated.
Phyl Terry 31:22
Now take person number two, this is true. By the way, this is not making this up. Second person, same thing CPO. CTO, in his case, private equity backed software firm. He thought they had about 10 million in tech debt. He says that so I said, you got to negotiate this with the CEO. So, he brought up the CEO and said, CEO, said, oh, say what many, many people say at first they'll say, oh, well, we'll deal with that. When you get on board, just come on board and make the pitch for it. I said, now, listen, you are a really experienced person. You know what you're talking about here? You know, you're, in the order of magnitude is correct. Maybe it's eight, maybe it's 12. But like, you got to, he said that he decided not to push it, okay.
Phyl Terry 31:41
So, he doesn't negotiate that day one, no check for $10 million. month three, no check. Month six, no check. I'm not sure we have the money for this. Or maybe we don't agree with you, 12 months in still no check and now he's looking for a new job. Now he's going to get a job, right? So, but the difference is opportunity costs and career acceleration and impact, right, that other person number one is now at a CEO, you know, level and is being interviewed for those roles, the other person is going to have to go back and get another CPO, CTO role. Hopefully that one will be better, and we do not have unlimited time in our careers, Michael.
Michael LeBlanc 34:19
Well, my, my guest is Phyl Terry. The book is Never Search Alone: The Job Seekers Playbook. It's available now where you love where you love to buy your books, just before we go, I can't have someone with your experience on the mic without asking, you know, this idea of a new kind of way that we're working, let's assume maybe it's going to stick around thanks to the COVID era, this hybrid work, whatever you want to call it. Is it as transformational as I think it is? Or do you think it's passing? What are you hearing from your Councils? You've got to I can't think of anyone who's got a better hand on, - yeah, - the pulse of this what, what in a few seconds, which is we could probably do a whole nother second podcast on this but what are you thinking about hybrid work and how It influences, (crossover talk), the workplace.
Phyl Terry 35:01
Let me do one thing real quick before that, and then answer that. One is, I just want your listeners to know that in addition to the book, I have a bunch of free tools on my website @phylterry.com. That's P H Y, Phil with a Y phylterry.com. Or neversearchalone.com. So, all the tools and templates that I talked about in the book are available free on the website, including a free matching service. If you get the book and you want to join a job search council and you can't get enough people involved, we will come to us for free, we'll help match you with other job seekers. So, you can get that job search council experience.
Phyl Terry 35:28
All right. in terms of hybrid work, I mean, this. Look, if I had a crystal ball, right I, I'd be a billionaire, I will tell you a couple of things that I think are critical. Clearly, some version of hybrid is going to be with us for some time to come. But you know, is this, this world is a, it’s a new world, we are not going back to what we had before the pandemic that is very clear, we're going forward. And there's a whole bunch of work being done on new kinds of tools that might allow people to do more of that serendipity that I just described in a remote or hybrid environment. We have a number of council members who are actually building those tools today, both inside their companies and starting companies around that. So, I it's a very interesting moment,
Phyl Terry 35:39
Michael, I'm just I'll tell you what, though, if you're in commercial real estate, you probably want to move industries. And I just want your listeners to know there's a book that came out of Harvard before the pandemic called, ‘Someone to Talk To’, which had amazing research that showed that half the time that we need help, we don't explicitly ask and we get that help from people that we bump into, in the hallways, unplanned, right. And that drives a lot of innovation and creativity. And that, of course, is almost impossible to do in a remote situation, right. So, I'm a believer in hybrid and having a some in person experience. It leads for, for important roles around the new product development, and so and so forth, where innovation and creativity is key.
Michael LeBlanc 37:14
You might want to move into warehouses, I think you want to be well. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. But I think it's your next book, I'll wait for that. But for now, thanks so much for joining me. it's so great to just have a discussion with you, and, and it's a wonderful book. And as I said I can't recommend it enough and, and Phyl, you've done such, such great work and, and it was a real treat to catch up and speak with you again. So, thanks for joining me on The Voice Retail podcast.
Phyl Terry 37:37
Thank you, Michael. Thanks for allowing your listeners to learn about my new book, Never Search Alone. I Really appreciate it.
Michael LeBlanc 37:43
Thanks for tuning in to this special episode of The Voice of retail. If you haven't already, be sure and click and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically twice a week. And check out my other retail industry media properties: the Remarkable Retail podcast, Conversations with CommerceNext podcast, and The Food Professor podcast with Dr. Sylvain Charlebois. Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my all-new YouTube barbecue show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week.
I'm your host, Michael LeBlanc, President of M. E. LeBlanc & Company and Maven media. And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website at meleblanc.co.
Have a safe week everyone.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
book, people, inaudible, Michael, job, company, talk, CEOs, crossover, interviews, museums, search, career, run, CTO, business, customer experience, important, process, thinking