In this episode Meet Rose Patten, O.C., one of Canada's pre-eminent business and strategic thinkers, special advisor to the CEO at BMO, an inductee to the Hall of Fame of Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women, an honorary colonel of the Canadian Forces College and the 34th Chancellor of the University of Toronto. Rose is now the author of Intentional Leadership: The Big 8 Capabilities Setting Leaders Apart. We chatted in person at her UofT offices to explore the principles and concepts of leadership well articulated in her popular new book.
Welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. My name is Michael LeBlanc, and I am your host, I believe in the power of storytelling to bring the retail industry to life. I'll bring insights, perspectives and experiences from some of the retail industry's most innovative and influential voices each week. This podcast is produced in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
In this episode Meet Rose Patten, O.C., one of Canada's pre-eminent business and strategic thinkers, special advisor to the CEO at BMO, an inductee to the Hall of Fame of Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women, an honorary colonel of the Canadian Forces College and the 34th Chancellor of the University of Toronto.
Rose is now the author of Intentional Leadership: The Big 8 Capabilities Setting Leaders Apart. We chatted in person at her UofT offices to explore the principles and concepts of leadership well articulated in her popular new book.
About Rose
Rose Patten is Special Advisor to the CEO and Senior Executives at BMO Financial Group. In this role she partners with and advises Group Heads on select strategies with a particular emphasis on strategy execution, leadership development and succession for top leaders.
Rose’s career has spanned the four financial sectors - banking, trust, insurance and investment banking - with responsibilities for Canada, U.S. Europe and Asia. Previous key roles at BMO include Head of Strategy (Senior Executive President), Global Head of Human Resources (Senior Executive President), Senior Vice President of Corporate Services and the first woman member and long-time Member of the Bank’s Executive Committee. Earlier roles include Executive Vice President of BMO Nesbitt Burns, Senior Vice President of Manulife and General Manager of Lloyds Bank Canada.
Rose Patten was named the Chancellor of the University of Toronto in May of 2018. She is also an Adjunct Professor at Rotman School of Management, teaching Senior Leadership, Talent and Succession, and Governance. She is member of Massey College, Honorary Patron of Kings College Circle Heritage Society and a member of the Boundless Campaign Cabinet. She was awarded an Honorary Doctor of Laws degree for Corporate Leadership and a University Program has been named in her honour - The Rose Patten Leadership Program.
Directorships:
About Michael
Michael is the Founder & President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company Inc. and a Senior Advisor to Retail Council of Canada and the Bank of Canada as part of his advisory and consulting practice. He brings 25+ years of brand/retail/marketing & eCommerce leadership experience with Levi's, Black & Decker, Hudson's Bay, Today's Shopping Choice and Pandora Jewellery.
Michael has been on the front lines of retail industry change for his entire career. He has delivered keynotes, hosted fire-side discussions with C-level executives and participated worldwide in thought leadership panels. ReThink Retail has added Michael to their prestigious Top Global Retail Influencers list for 2023 for the third year in a row.
Michael is also the president of Maven Media, producing a network of leading trade podcasts, including Canada's top retail industry podcast, The Voice of Retail. He produces and co-hosts Remarkable Retail with best-selling author Steve Dennis, now ranked one of the top retail podcasts in the world.
Based in San Francisco, Global eCommerce Leaders podcast explores global cross-border issues and opportunities for eCommerce brands and retailers.
Last but not least, Michael is the producer and host of the "Last Request Barbeque" channel on YouTube, where he cooks meals to die for - and collaborates with top brands as a food and product influencer across North America.
Michael LeBlanc 00:04
Welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. My name is Michael LeBlanc and I am your host. This podcast is produced in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
In this episode meet Rose Patten, one of Canada's preeminent business and strategic thinkers, Special Adviser to the CEO of BMO, an inductee to the Hall of Fame of Canada's top 100 Most Powerful Women, an honorary colonel of the Canadian Forces College and the 34th, Chancellor of the University of Toronto. Rose is now the author of Intentional Leadership: The Big 8 Capabilities Setting Leaders Apart. We chatted in person at our U of T offices and to explore the principles and concepts of leadership well articulated in her popular new book.
Rose, welcome to The Voice of Retail podcast. How are you doing this afternoon?
Rose Patten 00:45
I'm doing well and especially well, because it's such a wonderful day.
Michael LeBlanc 00:49
It's a wonderful day, and it's a wonderful room. What is the, the saying that new thoughts from old buildings, right, what was it, Jane Jacobs said that. So, it's a real treat for me to be back on campus. I'm, I'm a grad of Rotman, we're here in the chancellor's office. So, it's very familiar, looks to me, of course, all the construction makes it a little less familiar. Getting there.
Rose Patten 01:08
But as a, as a grad and alum, you know, you will be happy when it's finished.
Michael LeBlanc 01:13
No doubt,
Rose Patten 01:13
Because it's going to be even more explicit and inviting to come back.
Michael LeBlanc 01:17
Perfect. Perfect. Well, thanks so much for sitting down with me, very excited to talk about your book and talk about you a little bit. So, let's begin there. Tell us a little bit and tell listeners a little bit about yourself, who are you and what you do for a living, you have an esteemed past Order of Canada, very accomplished. Chancellor, we want to get into the head of University of Toronto. I want to find out what that actually does and what that actually means but tell us a little bit about yourself.
Rose Patten 01:42
Well, a quick, quick view of my path. It doesn't to me, you know, seem all that great, or I mean, great meaning unusual, but you just do what you do and you end up where you are, but I quote Steve Jobs very often because he has this wonderful expression that says you can't really link the dots or connected these from looking backward, you can only really hope they work looking forward and I think that mine works really well. So, looking backward, it sounds kind of neat, and orderly, but you know how life is different and works quite that way.
Rose Patten 02:18
Sure, sure.
Rose Patten 02:19
But my, my early years were spent in Newfoundland and then beyond that. So that's kind of a start, a birth, starting early point and then my next point in life, which has been the major part of my life has been Toronto and from a career standpoint, I guess that, to give you that picture. It's been largely in finance and financial institutions, but actually, I've been around long enough that when I began in the various parts of the financial industry, they were all separate. So, I spent time in what we would know was regular banking.
Michael LeBlanc 02:57
Retail banking versus.
Rose Patten 02:58
It would be retail commercial, but you know, that side of banking, investment banking, insurance, and trust. So, I was in each of the pillars and so that brought me into the opportunity to be able to be part of the actual integration and merger of some of those when they began and so it's been largely in Canada in those early years but then as I became more senior, particularly at Manulife, and at BMO, I spent a lot of time in Asia. So, I mentioned this because it's, it's, it's significant. In my view, as to my learning my development of going to Asia, spending a third of my time there, I didn't live full time there, but a third of my time over three years and so I attribute that greatly to early understanding of cultures and so basically think of it this way. It was the four pillars and financial services, kind of Canada, US fair bit, because we're big in the US. Europe, not so much and then Asia in a significant way.
Michael LeBlanc 04:10
So, as you think back about what got you into banking, were you always interested in finance and business, did you have a fork in the road that you took one way shape or another, how did you wind up in this kind of career path?
Rose Patten 04:20
Well, you know, I didn't have a crystal ball and I didn't have a big plan. I just, it was kind of started out being a job and it intrigued me pretty fast because of being into a quantitative structure or kind of way. I like complex things. I was always considered to be a nosy person, now they call it, now they call it curiosity. Yeah, and curiosity is good. So, I did okay, by my curiosity, although it wasn't always thought of that way through the years. And so, it was never intended as a career in banking, per se, but my portfolios tended to come that not always by my choice, but also looking back, that would be I gravitated that way I did well that way and therefore, you know, you get recognized, it was always two streams.
Rose Patten 05:13
So, on the financial kind of strategic side, because early days, you had to be financially oriented in order to be strategically oriented, that was expected, and I'd gravitated quite a bit toward the people side. So that was an interesting mix. Again, if you look back in hindsight, so I ended up I guess, you know, throughout the financial services industry in those various sectors, and in the geographies, but I also ended up I guess, in some way with two streams, either one and then the other. So, it was either on the people side, and leadership started to emerge as a, as a label, even, even though that and only in more recent years, because we talked about management in general, to our schools as well, but that started to emerge. So, it was never the day to day of the human resource kind of policy practice as much as it was in the talent side. So, it was very much leadership dash talent.
Rose Patten 06:18
And then I just gravitate planning in and strategy, they had different names in those days and so I was had one or the other in each of those institutions and then I landed, lastly, with BMO, and I had both, so I had, I was EVP of the Office of Strategic Management, and I was EVP of human resources. So, it was a combined, which is very unusual, but you know, sometimes things happen, because of the person, because of time, because of the circumstance. Now, and when I put in place my successors 10 years ago, or so, we separated it at that time. So now there's a head, you know, of global HR, and as a head of strategy, so that's more typical, but anyway, but I learned an enormous amount from those dual portfolios, and the wonderful ability to do it.
Rose Patten 07:12
So that is how if you look back and where I am today, I'm doing a mix still, I moved away intentionally. From BMO, from BMO two portfolios that we talked about both combinations of where I was in life, it wasn't pure retirement, but it was where I was in life, combined with my great desires that were now a little bit more evident to me and I was starting to point where I could have choice. So I talked to our CEO at the time to say, you know, I really would like to focus on the whole concept of leadership or get started, Michael would say, in a very serious way, that could be codified, and about 10, 12 years ago, so it was in the aftermath of the financial crisis and I was big in those two portfolios at that time.
Rose Patten 08:02
I got invited to be part of a very serious study across North America as one of maybe 350 or so very senior leaders to look at what were the implications for leadership, and could leadership if it had been different, or better, could it have been impactful through the financial crisis. So that really turned on my buttons. That's when I wanted to be part of this, and not the university per se, but this whole topic,
Michael LeBlanc 08:33
Field of study almost.
Rose Patten 08:34
It's a body of knowledge and field of study, but not one that you could quickly generalize about, you know, or declare conclusions. This is a very complex, somewhat elusive topic for a lot of people and rightly so.
Michael LeBlanc 08:50
It reminds me of I spent some time at McGill University, in the master's program in international relations, and it was at the time when the wall came down. So, we were at this, we were at this this fiction that lived for 30 or 40 years that we managed through the Cuban Missile Crisis, that, that, that was a school that you could establish, that was conflict management and what we quickly figured out when the wall came down, and people started talking, well, we just got lucky.
Rose Patten 09:16
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 09:17
Right. We didn't blow the world up because we it was well managed and the banking crisis to meet kind of felt a little bit like that, like, we're like, one thing over here just started to spin out of control and, and, and so really it, now we think differently of leadership and management control, right?
Rose Patten 09:33
Yeah and I think I would say to you, based on my very deliberate exploration, which began in about, you know, 20-, I guess, more like '10 or '11, even though the crisis started in '08, basically, but it began to be clear to me that there was something to this, but we needed more carefully to look at it because leadership is often thought of in generalizations or lists of attributes. I'm sure you know our list of things. So, I wanted to get beyond that. Well, for my curiosity, as well as I have a need for more precision to things.
Michael LeBlanc 10:10
I think that's reflected in your accomplishments. I think that's okay. Let's talk about, you're the 34th. Chancellor of the University of Toronto. So, I'm a grad, but I have to admit, I do not know what a Chancellor of University of Toronto does. So, unpack that for the listeners a little bit.
Rose Patten 10:25
So, so, thank you for asking that. But don't feel alone. You are right. In fact, I take the often the initiative, when people say, what do you do, what do you do, you know, want me to tell you a little bit about it, You know, I don't want to assume they want to know, but it's, you know, I guess the best way to describe it, officially would be called the ceremonial head of the university. The management head would be the president. In Canada, I would think most universities do have some form, but most of those that are known as Chancellor's would have a similar role. So not uniquely different in each one, although they may play out differently, because personalities bring things to the table.
Michael LeBlanc 11:09
Sure, sure. Some people are more rainmakers, others are more policy driven.
Rose Patten 11:13
That's right, yeah and are just very people driven. In fact, when I became chancellor as an elected post, by the way, not an appointment, it’s elected by a board of 50 people here. So, you kind of-
Michael LeBlanc 11:28
That must have been unique for you, have you ever been in an elected position, I mean, you,
Rose Patten 11:33
No.
Michael LeBlanc 11:33
It's different, right?
Rose Patten 11:34
It's very different, you know, you're selected, you know, or you're appointed and that's kind of it. So, this was different, but the nice thing about it is, in my view, you don't know you're being considered,
Michael LeBlanc 11:46
Oh, okay.
Rose Patten 11:47
You're, you're only asked when you're the chosen one, to see if you would be interested in taking it.
Michael LeBlanc 11:55
I don't imagine many people turn it down. It's quite a prestigious,
Rose Patten 11:58
It's a wonderful purposeful thing. I think of it for its purpose. Its far-reaching impact, you know, it's been around, long standing institution. So, these are the factors that really interested me and I saw leadership in the big owl sense around this umbrella, as well and so it was just, it was the biggest honor, ever. I mean, just wonderful. I've been very fortunate in that respect.
Michael LeBlanc 12:24
And you, you are a beneficiary, you've got a higher education as well as several, several degrees as well. What's your assessment of, of university in higher education today, is it serving the purpose it needs to, are we creating good citizens or recreating people who can go out and get jobs and be productive and be good citizens? What's, what's your assessment? Sitting, and it's, it's interesting, it's a different aspect of art, it's a different thing to be in this office than outside looking in, or whatever?
Rose Patten 12:48
Well, I mean, I guess I've had seen it from both angles, because, you know, in all my years, in big institutions, I've been after talent, big time, and it was part of even my role, much less what I should be interested in. So, I think your question is an important one. I would say that, you know, we, it's like, my concepts of leadership, there's always renewal, I think the times we're in, in general, as they change some changes, you know, that we see some of the crisis are transitional, but, but others are not transitory, they're here to stay.
Rose Patten 13:22
So, I do think that education largely does need constant attention and renewal for its currency for its relevancy, but I would say, you know, I can speak to give you an idea of University of Toronto, and you came here, so I'm sure you favorite it for, for different reasons, but at the same time, you know, we're known as you, as you know, this one of top 10 in the world, but on the ranking, you actually do get ranked on your employability of your students. So, their, their preparation, how much they're sought after, for employment, and we ranked 11th in the world. So, we're very proud and we are very feeling comfortable in general, we'll never be doing as well, you know, it keeps changing.
Michael LeBlanc 14:10
Sure.
Rose Patten 14:11
But I think we're doing extremely well. I can only speak with knowledge to the University of Toronto, but I do think that you know the tension is on.
Michael LeBlanc 14:22
Well, let's, let's talk about what we're here to talk about a little bit. We're here to talk about you a little bit. Let's talk about your book, Intentional Leadership: The Big 8 Capabilities Setting Leaders Apart. So let's start at the beginning. Why did you write the book, was it, was it a gap on the shelf, you saw that there was a gap somewhere, was it something that you just been wanting to do for decades, you just had to say it or is something changed up to take me through your thinking?
Rose Patten 14:46
It was never in my mind. It was never in my mind. It was never on my bucket list and was there a glimmer even a probability, no. So that's as definite as I can be about it, but I didn't finish telling you the story of how I began a very deliberate exploration of leadership to the financial crisis and then of course, before we know it, this wasn't that long in between we had the pandemic.
Michael LeBlanc 15:10
Sure.
Rose Patten 15:10
I was drawn into it again, but during that period, I was invited to teach at Rotman and I've been teaching leadership, in fact, a flagship branch of the flagship program at Rotman and we didn't at Rotman and you might know this from your knowledge, you know, we didn't go the route of the six week advanced leadership around management program to some did. So, we've done it more, kind of, in a much more focused way and so I was fortunate enough to be in, was Roger Martin today and to be asked to do this. And that was right at the time I mentioned to you that I wanted to get more involved in this in concepts of leadership.
Rose Patten 15:53
So throughout that period between then which was in the aftermath, and now there's been 1400 leaders who've been through this program that I was shaping these concepts that I was shaping from this work, and the 14, we're not all here, but 500 of them were from BMO, BMO has offered advanced leadership to the top 500 people around the world, since '08, and that was one of my, you know, kind of pet peeves and because it used to be in many organizations that, you know, it's stopped, kinda,
Michael LeBlanc 16:33
Yeah.
Rose Patten 16:37
And so. [inaudible]
Rose Patten 16:45
And to create, create a model, a concept practice, that seemed to be "working" and so really, that had been going on and then I was drawn back into it with the pandemic. So it was in and around the pandemic time, that I started to think I should really be codifying this to a much greater extent, I would get like questions asked from time to time, you know, when people were leaving, 'oh, Rose, we've been here a week, but you gotta give us something else kind of thing, you know, this is the biggest problem we have, because unless you have something to trigger back at the workplace.
Michael LeBlanc 17:20
Yeah.
Rose Patten 17:20
There's some of it which you don't carry on with and so I had an invitation from, from the, a couple of publishing houses, but their interest was more on all about me and me and the ceilings, breaking the ceilings. That doesn't interest me as much. I'm a private and low-key person in general. Although my public positions wouldn't,
Michael LeBlanc 17:44
I was gonna say, as Chancellor of University, University of Toronto, I would say, yeah okay.
Rose Patten 17:50
Because you know it has a global reach as well.
Michael LeBlanc 17:52
Yes.
Rose Patten 17:53
And we do have, you know, many, many, many thousands of people, but that's different.
Michael LeBlanc 17:59
That's different. I noticed that in your book. I mean, you know, we were talking off mic, I've interviewed many authors, Roger Martin has been on the podcast a couple of times and some authors take a path where they spend a quarter of the book talking about themselves for context, but you kind of jump right in, you know, the basically the only thing you get to know about us on the jacket of the outside cover.
Rose Patten 18:18
No, I jump in and in fact, of the one point that I think is very relevant, if you don't mind is that my immediate attention was drawn to not just the 1400 people who had kind of been living through this in the classroom, and that I had a chance to explore, but then I chose 10 Canadian leaders on the criteria that I had to know them well, meaning I had to know whether I believed that they were really great leadership. Titles don't always tell you people are great leaders and that they needed to be multiple sector, just as I was in my leadership learning and that, you know, had to like them.
Rose Patten 18:59
So, I immediately asked them even before I had put a pen to paper, would they join me on this journey and have conversations, I didn't call it the interviews and, you know, I was very fortunate each of the 10, I didn't have to go to my second list kind of thing when all said yes.
Rose Patten 19:19
Yeah.
Rose Patten 19:20
So, my, my philosophy is, is that it's what a lot of people do, not what one person does and I think that they were able to through their real stories, and through how they volunteered their setbacks, and their defining moments. It was amazing how we were able to see that they were utilizing some of those concepts, but it was all their words and everything in the book.
Rose Patten 19:54
So it it's not about me, you know, I believe that one of the big lessons that I've learned and I I know you have an interest in this is consultation, input debate and discussion is all part of an outcome that's much richer and so I think this view that we as leaders have had, and I think it's an outdated belief that we have and I had when I was in earlier years, where when you're chosen to be a senior leader, wow, you really arrived and now, you know, you got to have all the answers, because that's what you get paid so much for
Rose Patten 20:35
And so, I went through early years of not that early either, but thinking I had to have all the answers, well, aside from the fact that, you know, your conclusions are not as rich, be, you can kill yourself kind of trying to have all the answers and see you can shortchange other people. So, you do learn this, so it stayed with me quite a bit and, and so that's why you don't, yeah, I don't, I don't need to say lots.
Michael LeBlanc 21:04
Right and I wanted to talk and some of your folks you interviewed talked about this idea of short versus long term objectives. It's one thing that interests me a lot. I mean, you know, as an executive, in a high performing organization, you still need to put bullet points on the board, right, you still need to hit your objectives, you still need, you know, shareholder value, whatever those values are. How do you, how do you think and many of you, the folks you've interviewed talked about this this trade off, if it's a true trade off, if that's framed, right, between short term and long term objectives and I think that applies to leadership as well, what do I need to get done today versus what, and sometimes these conflict, right, what do I need to get done today versus what I need to get done in the right direction, how do you think about that?
Rose Patten 21:42
I think about it in the sense that it is an age old problem, but it will continue because I don't think there's any, any way around it in the sense that, you know, we are subjected to a lot of stakeholders, stakeholders, you know, it's one of my big game changers are the change in stakeholders from shareholder to stakeholder, and we have many of them, and they're only going to continue to either stay very demanding, or even get more demanding.
Rose Patten 22:10
So, I don't think they'll get less. So, while, ever we have this, I think you, you can't ignore either one of this. I think that because one of the premises in my book, and why I call it intentional leadership, is that we have to be more reflective. Now, that doesn't mean doing meditation sessions every day, but we have to be more reflective, to think about the moment in time to think about and get input from others, what some of the consequences are of some of our major decisions that may alert us to, you know, there's, there's more to think about that's coming down the road here. I think we're just often too urgent to do the here and now that we don't give enough time to the longer term, but I also recognize that, you know, there's a lot of expectations, and no one has lots of patience.
Michael LeBlanc 23:01
You know, and I've worked and continue to work for Retail Council of Canada, which, you know, is a lobbying organization, and often we find ourselves talking to politicians about unintended consequences.
Rose Patten 23:10
Yes, exactly.
Michael LeBlanc 23:12
So that's why I liked it when people say, 'what did you do for a living?', I say, 'Well, let me frame it this way. When you have discussions with business leaders and decision leaders and politicians, you're explaining, you're thinking, you're gonna make this decision, but you need to understand the broader set of consequences. So, I really read, what you say, really, really resonates with me.
Rose Patten 23:29
And you know, Michael, it also, it's what I really care about in conveying that the context matters. Often, we don't pay enough attention to the context and we use and try to rely too much on yesterday's assumptions without thinking if something there may have changed. So reflection, you know, an intention will bring this out, as opposed to the underlying assumption that's been tried and true for a while.
Michael LeBlanc 23:58
Is the pace of change an artificial construct, are we really, you know, everyone says is so fast paced now, are we is that, is that true, I mean, it's fair to say I think you and I would agree that we can't imagine ourselves being less influenced by digital in the next 10 years. It's hard to see less of the sum of these things, but is it, this I call it the cult, the cult of busyness, we used to get an elevator say, how are you doing, I'm busy, how you doing, I'm busy.
Rose Patten 24:25
I love it. I love that expression. I hadn't heard it put that way. So, it is a really wonderful, smart question and when I say so, it's a very insightful question because I have to say, it's, it's both. I think the unprecedented change that we talk about these extraordinary times. I do think they are real, but they're not necessarily as real dramatic and embellished as we make them to be, you know, through the media through the coffee conversation.
Rose Patten 24:58
However, I believe some of them are transitory and so basically, if you've got some that are transport, you got to recognize that and distinguish between, it's hard to decipher because we're surrounded by so much information, and hyperbole, really but I do think that there are many of the changes that are here to stay, they may shape a little differently. You know, in my book, I like the idea of the pendulum swing. And pendulums take sometimes a bit of time to be nudged, they do swing, they never swing back to where they were. So, there's always change that sticking and it builds. So, I do think that we're in a world that is constantly changing, and I think leadership renewal is, is the only way around it.
Michael LeBlanc 25:48
Let's talk about the period, we just went through the COVID era, and I like you think about, you know, changes we made to our lives and structures that were an adaptation to a very unusual time versus structural changes.
Rose Patten 26:01
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 26:02
So, as you reflect on, on the COVID, here, what kind of do you think of any structural changes that brought about I mean, you, you were, you took on the mantle of strategy during the banking crisis, crisis of a different kind, but for that sector, quite, quite important. Do you, do you think leadership has changed or any changes that you can, lessons learned?
Rose Patten 26:21
I think it has dramatic impact on leadership, because if I may refer to my book, I identified three game changers because, to your point, leadership is always changing, you know, you can get carried away a little bit here and there but I think at the end of the day, you'd have to really look at and examine and explore and prove and test and push and pull. What are the real game changers that are here that no one is exempt from.
Rose Patten 26:50
And the three that I came up with were the stakeholder expectations, the changing workforce, and of course, the short-lived strategies, no one can get away from those, they're not going to get better. So even, even in this kind of cult environment, these are not going to go away. So your point about digitalization, because it's one of the causes of strategy, you know, being so short lived and I think was, was, it's within those, I think that leaders, and I talk a bit about this in my book, just need to pause, reflect and become a bit more aware of their immediate, what's immediate context demand, I think they're smart enough to be able to come up with but potentially a slightly different solution.
Rose Patten 27:38
The other thing that I think in the workplace and COVID, to me, prove this, is that, you know, we, we were grateful that the workplace's changed overnight, you know, on a weekend we went remote, and we just thought we would do well but we forgot that when things kind of went another way, it doesn't mean they'd stay there in the case of people's attitudes, people were harmed, in many ways, by COVID times different hardships, some for financial, some health, some
Michael LeBlanc 28:12
Mental, Sure.
Rose Patten 28:13
Death, mental health, all kinds of health. So, the decisions that, that leaders have to be involved in now in addition to the normal stuff of financial performance and productivity. They can't escape the reality, or at least the implications of this. So, I think that we're far from being able to prescribe, what is the outcome in a post COVID environment.
Michael LeBlanc 28:39
I've interviewed an author, he's a great thinker on this Rishad Tobaccowala and he says the future doesn't fit in the containers of the past. So, he kind of says, you know, everything, everything has changed very much. I've read the same themes in your books,
Rose Patten 28:50
It's the same things, yeah in a different language, yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 28:53
I want to zoom in on one element and that's the workplace, alright. So, we're very boisterous conversation going on right now, you would be more than familiar with it and I think it's fascinating because it involves everything from class to control to productivity. You know, when I talked to, I talked to retail CEOs across the country every quarter, and during the COVID era was saying, okay, how, are you feeling like your people are productive at home, 8 out of 10, we love the productivity. I don't know if it's gonna last but we'd like it, doesn't work for everybody and we now see prominent CEOs, threatening enticing somewhere on a spectrum their employees back to the office, what do you make of all this, where do you, what do you think?
Rose Patten 29:34
I think, you know, in terms of the assertions that I've made, or the learnings that I would like to convey, I do think there's more need for leaders to listen more, to engage more. Now, the workforce is crying out for this. So, they're, they're talking about it by walking, you know, their feet, but I still think that it's a wakeup call for leaders to not rely on yesterday's assumptions and it's not about a command and control yesterday, because we've moved in many ways from this, although there's so many that hold on.
Rose Patten 30:08
But it is more about connect and collaborate input as part of my big eight and so I just think that leaders have to, you know, if you wanted to take them off their high horse as you could, I'm a leader. So, I know what it's like to try to make change. It's hard and you know, what's it like to change myself, it's hard. but it's the reality and I do think tuning into a different mindset right now, their own, but also the employee is so critical. My advice to the CEOs that I advise, which is not just my immediate, two or three, because I do this in other ways, is to don't rush into take time, listen, yes, you need to stay competitive, you need to move as quickly as you can, but don't just declare and implement. I just think it'll bite you.
Michael LeBlanc 31:04
Yeah, I completely agree. Last couple of questions. Looking at your career accomplished quite a lot, by any measure, anything you would have done differently. As you look back. I mean, it's hard to imagine too much decisions that you went left, right, or center, is there anything you, you, or lessons you would impart from your background or something you might have done a bit different?
Rose Patten 31:28
Well, I get asked that a lot and so yes, I mean, there's lots that you would want to have done earlier. You know, things I've mentioned to you about some of the learnings that I had, from my cultural diversity, early years, you know, I would have done that earlier and learned more even because I think it's been so beneficial. I haven't had too many stumbles, but I think that's also because I'm quite a positive person and I make something out of it, you know.
Rose Patten 31:57
Being head of University Avenue and being told you wouldn't walk again, that did happen to me.
Michael LeBlanc 31:57
Yeah.
Michael LeBlanc 32:01
Oh, my goodness.
Rose Patten 32:02
So, I make something out of things and I kind of, so it's not naivety, it's just an element of realistic optimism.
Michael LeBlanc 32:12
I've heard it said by some people and you don't have as much time as you think to accomplish, like, like, like, I get that from a lot of leaders there. When they think about their organs, are we moving fast enough, are we, are we watching these years ago passed us, are we, you know. There was one, it was, it was funny because it was one of these weird benefits of the COVID era, right. We were like should we be home, should we do this and overnight, suddenly, everyone went home and was able to work, like we solved the problem in days, not years. That kind of, I feel like, and I'll get your thoughts on this. I feel like there's a concern among leaders that they've lost that kind of ability, let's call it agility to kind of make those decisions and framed another way, why do I need a crisis to be able, to be able to make those quick decisions, right, but I think reading your book, I think the lessons and your model is I think helpful in that and moves that forward?
Rose Patten 33:00
Well, I think it is because there's no condemnation here. It's just the reality that we're dealing with, and I do think that, you know, the self-awareness and situational awareness is what's lacking. We're still holding on to yesterday's assumptions. We're relying on them, and I think that we just need to stop this. It's not that we don't have the ability, but self-awareness to me. You know, there's research showing that self-awareness, leaders who are truly self-aware are four times more successful.
Rose Patten 33:35
Now, that doesn't mean in terms of promotions and titles, it means in success, period, you know, getting, getting the thing down. So, I feel that, I guess, you know, still trying to answer your question in a way because I could give you many, many things that I would have done differently. I would say that self-awareness is one that we should all watch, I learned how to be more self-aware. We confuse self-image with self-awareness and so I think about it.
Michael LeBlanc 34:08
Interesting.
Rose Patten 33:09
We confuse self-image with self-awareness.
Michael LeBlanc 34:10
That's very profound. It's interesting.
Rose Patten 34:12
And I think once we stop doing that, then we have nowhere to go, but to maybe get some input from others when you're testing your own self-image. That, that'll wake you up.
Michael LeBlanc 34:23
Well, my guest is Rose Patten. The book is Intentional Leadership: The Big 8 Capabilities Setting Leaders Apart available, I'll put a link in the show notes. Available, I saw it on Amazon, available where you love to buy your books, Amazon, Chapters, wherever, University of Toronto press of course, you can, you can buy through. Well rose, thanks so much for sitting down. You're very generous with your time and insights and it was a treat to meet you and thanks so much for joining me on the podcast.
Rose Patten 34:46
Well, I'm really glad I did it. I've told you the story of it and so I repeat that it's been my pleasure as well.
Michael LeBlanc 34:52
Fantastic.
Rose Patten 34:53
And I wish you well with what you're doing, what you're doing, I think is extremely important for all of us.
Michael LeBlanc 34:58
Thanks for tuning into this episode of The Voice of Retail. If you haven't already, be sure to follow on your favorite podcast platform so new episodes will land automatically each week and be sure to check out my other retail industry media properties, Remarkable Retail podcast with Steve Dennis, and the Global E-commerce Leaders Podcast.
Michael LeBlanc 35:14
Last but not least, if you're into barbecue, check out my YouTube barbecue show Last Request Barbecue with new episodes each and every week.
I'm your host Michael LeBlanc, consumer growth consultant, President of ME Leblanc and Company Inc, and Mavin Media, and keynote speaker. If you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn or visit my website and meleblanc.co.
Safe travels everyone!
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
leadership, leaders, people, book, talk, bmo, toronto, big, canada, chancellor, bit, podcast, portfolios, Rotman, retail, university, decisions, years, early, self awareness