In this episode, I’m in Chicago with famed business strategist Rishad Tobaccowala, who shares insights from his bestselling book “Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data” talks about his 30-year career advising clients on change, innovation and growth and in a wide-ranging and next-level fascinating discussion talks about the future of the workplace, our roles within in, and the difference between a cult and a culture, then three massive global trends you need to know.
Welcome to the The Voice of Retail , I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, and this podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
In this episode, I’m in Chicago with famed business strategist Rishad Tobaccowala, who shares insights from his bestselling book “Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data” talks about his 30-year career advising clients on change, innovation and growth and in a wide-ranging and next-level fascinating discussion talks about the future of the workplace, our roles within in, and the difference between a cult and a culture, then three massive global trends you need to know.
Follow Rishad's blog here, and subscribe to his amazing weekly newsletter, "The future does not fit in the containers of the past", here.
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I’m your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. LeBlanc & Company, and if you’re looking for more content, or want to chat follow me on LinkedIn, or visit my website meleblanc.co!
Until next time, stay safe and have a great week!
Michael LeBlanc
Welcome to The Voice of Retail. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc. This podcast is brought to you in conjunction with Retail Council of Canada.
In this episode, I'm in Chicago with famed business strategist, Rishad Tobaccowala, who shares insights from his bestselling book, "Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data" talks about his 30-year career advising clients on change, innovation and growth. And in a wide ranging, and next level, fascinating discussion talks about the future of the workplace, our roles within it, and the differences between a cult and a culture, and then three massive global trends you need to know.
You know, the same, the things the COVID are accelerated, but there's also things that were net new. It's not like couldn't work from home before. Is this, is this a cultural and a strategic shift?
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yes, yes
Michael LeBlanc
Do you think this is the most important one?
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yes, I think they're are three big impacts. The first one is what I call the unbundled workplace. That we used to all have this bundled workplace, which was the office, and now it's been unbundled into four different areas, which is the home, the old office, which I now call the museum where the artifacts are kept and the old senior people roost. Right, and you go for your cultural indoctrination.
Michael LeBlanc
Let's listen in now.
Rishad, welcome to The Voice of Retail Podcast. How you doing this morning?
Rishad Tobaccowala
Excellent. Thank you very much for having me.
Michael LeBlanc
Well, it's my pleasure. It's the second time you and I have had the opportunity to speak. You were a guest on Remarkable Retail on season one. Whereabouts are you? Where, where are you located right now?
Rishad Tobaccowala
I am located in Chicago, Illinois, where I have been for one year and six days until this past weekend, or two weekends ago. When two weeks after my wife and I received our second shot of Moderna, we caught a plane to go visit our daughters and then came back.
Michael LeBlanc
Listen, we've kind of jumped right in. Tell us, so why don't you take a step back. Let's, tell us about yourself, your background and what you do now to occupy your time.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Fantastic. So very quickly, grew up in India. Got a degree in advanced mathematics. Came to the University of Chicago for an MBA in 1980. Graduated in 1982. Started working at a advertising agency called Leo Burnett. Thirty seven years later, I stopped working at, in the Leo Burnett building, but working for a company called Publicis, which Leo Burnett had been sold to in 2002. The last time my business card said 'Leo Burnett' was actually in 1995, because I began to launch a lot of different things. But I spent 37 years at, you know, the Publicis Groupe, or its predecessors. Most recently, I was the Chief Strategist and the Chief Growth Officer of the company. Worldwide, it's about 80,000 people. And, I continue to be an advisor and sort of like a emeritus professor. So my email works and my keycard works. And I still have a parking spot, not that we go to work these days.
Michael LeBlanc
How did, how did you find your way into, of all places, the advertising world back when you, when you started your career? I mean, when you're steeped in, you have very accomplished record in data and science. And it just seems like you'd be at a Hewlett Packard or something like that. How did you, how did you find yourself in advertising?
Rishad Tobaccowala
There were two reasons. One was I wanted to find a way to better understand America. I had grown up in India. And when I was in business school, I began to realize that what I needed to understand was American culture, broadly, as well as,
Michael LeBlanc
How's that going by the way?
Rishad Tobaccowala
Well, you know, it's always evolving. But I think I might have finally grasped it for about a minute. But, one was to understand America. The other was I wanted to learn about business and strategy. And in those days, in the 80s, Leo Burnett was basically a marketing strategy firm as much as an advertising firm. And, you know, we're sort of held in the same regard as Goldman Sachs and McKinsey. So, a privately held company with 32 major clients based out of Chicago. So that was one reason.
And the second is, it was one of the few companies that was willing to bet on a immigrant without a work visa. So, and it's, and I thought, okay, I'll spend my few years here learn, get a green card and then move on. But either due to loyalty or unemployability, I spent my entire career there.
Michael LeBlanc
Thirty seven years later, you still have a parking spot. But now what, what do you do now? You're, you're, do you consult? You, you do a number of things. I mean, I love your Sunday, your Sunday posts are so insightful. I'm so happy that we met and I connected there. They fill my Sundays with, with insight.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Thank you.
Michael LeBlanc
I thoroughly enjoy it.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Perfect, so the best way, you know, if I would do put it in In a strategic framework, what I now do is I offer cognition as a service. So, I basically let people, or help people with my mind. And I do it in three different ways. I do a one to many model. Which is a book, which I've written called "Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data', a blog, and then this newsletter called "The Future Doesn't Fit in the Containers of the Past'. So that's my one to many model. I have a one to some model, which combines teaching, speaking and participating at events.
And then I have a one to one model, which is an advisory business, where I work for large companies, including companies like Publicis, private equity, and then for startups. And, you know, the way I sort of provide what the benefit is, is I help people see, think and feel differently about how they can grow themselves, their teams, and their business. I am supposedly claimed that I do that with accelerated insights, actionable inspiration, and augmented intelligence. So that's my sales pitch. So far, it's working.
Michael LeBlanc
Very good. Let's talk about the book, came out last year, I believe, 2020?
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yes, January 2020,
Michael LeBlanc
"Restoring the Soul of Business: Staying Human in the Age of Data". So, tell us about why you wrote the book. I mean, there's lots of books on the shelves. Why did you think there was some room for what you had to say?
Rishad Tobaccowala
I believed that many companies had started to understand, and then almost over emphasize, the importance of data and the left brain in their businesses, and had left behind too much of the right brain, or the story of their business. So, I call the left brain, the spreadsheet of the business and the right brain, the story of the business. And, I truly began to believe that, and I saw increasingly that, companies that skewed very left brained ended up doing badly. Whether it was a United Airlines focusing on costs . A WeWork, or not a WeWork, but a Wells Fargo opening accounts at any price. These businesses actually, driven by data and driven by data driven results eventually ended up being troubled.
On the other hand, businesses that were only about story like a WeWork, they got high on their own marijuana. And one day they were worth $67 billion, and the next day six.
Category after category, I saw that the successful companies, but also successful individuals, were those who combined the story on the spreadsheet, which is the soul of a business was booked the math and the meaning. And you see that in whether it is Southwest versus United, Costco versus the old Walmart, Microsoft before and after Satya Nadella.
So, I decided to basically put together a book where on 12 different areas, everything from data to leadership, to having meetings, how you combine the two, in order to succeed.
Michael LeBlanc
We've gone through this, well we're still in it, what I've called the COVID era. I mean, by the time we're done, it could be 18 months, two years, whatever it is, globally could even be longer. Is, are you thinking about how that affects data? And under our understanding of the data? Is, is the period we're in so different? I guess it you know, builds up to your thesis but, is the era, is the time, the behaviors, the consumer behaviors, are they so different that you can't draw any learnings from them? Is it, is it, I think you called the the first six months of 2001, a mulligan in terms of brand should be trying different things. But if you were building models, or trying to understand or advise, as you do your clients to figure out what lessons to take away from the COVID era, is it a blank slate? Or are there really things that you're starting to think about that are truly lessons from this time were in?
Rishad Tobaccowala
I believe it's a combination. There are some lessons we can learn. And the lessons are that we as individuals and as business and as teams have basically gone through a society, business society. And individuals have gone through three phases, a phase of fragility, a phase of resilience, and now, hopefully a phase of resurrection.
And the fragility phase basically began to make us realize that we were fragile not only as individuals because we were ill but as society because you saw the society problems. And as businesses, that many businesses had over extended, had also sometimes become so lean in supply chain that they broke apart. And so therefore, the whole idea was how do you become resilient? How you shore up your balance sheet? How do you restore your health? etc.
And now we're going into this resurrection phase. And the resurrection phases is where I suggest to people that they start with almost a blank sheet of paper, but not completely. So, I basically say, why don't you think about last year, and how do you think that people are going to be different, and what are they going to expect? The people you are selling to, marketing to, dealing with. So, how about, how, what will they want more of, less of, how are they going to change? That's the first thing. And often those behaviors, some of those will stay the same, but many have dramatically changed, as you know.
The second is look at yourself as a company, or as a team, or as a individual, and say, Okay, this was like an asteroid hit you. But you're still standing. So what are the fault lines? You know, what cracks have shown up? On the other hand, you're still standing, so what's your resilience? What new opportunities or new threats might come up? Just keep those two in mind, which is people and yourself. And then start with a blank sheet of paper and say, keeping those two in mind if I started again, what would I do? But the only rules being whatever you do has to be legal, it has to basically be scientifically possible, and break even within three years or less. Because I do believe that there's going to be massive mindset shifts, and in everything, including culture, and companies.
I was just reading an article today in the New York Times that the vacancy rate in New York, in Manhattan right now is about 17%. The highest it's ever been in its history. Which (inaudible) 911,
Michael LeBlanc
I was reading the same article. And I've been talking for a while with my clients, and in my presentations about one of the, one of the lasting implications of the COVID era that is new, is the work from home movement. And, and what I liked about the article, it made a couple of great points. One of them, you just said, you know, but 15% of the workplace. And then you know, the idea that, you know, the idea that no one is going to go back to the office is untrue. And the idea that everyone is going to go back to the office is untrue. I think this could be. You know there are same things, the COVID era accelerated. But there's also things that were net new, it's not like we couldn't work at home before. Is this just a cultural and a strategic shift?
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yes, yes.
Michael LeBlanc
Do you think this is the most important one?
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yes, I think that three big impacts. The first one is what I call the unbundled workplace, that we used to all have this bundled workplace, which was the office. And now it's been unbundled into four different areas. Which is the home, the old office, which I now call the museum where the artifacts are kept, and the old senior people roost, right, and you go for your cultural indoctrination. The third will be potentially things like WeWorks, and Regus where you work, or where near clusters of your employees are. And the final will be events that will be created where people can either like automatic go off on trips, one week, every quarter. Where you can have the relationship building, education and the bonding. But, all of the things that people need, the false narrative, is it, you know, the stuff that can't be done at home, can be done at the office? No, because a lot of the stuff that can't be done at home can actually be done at a third party event or a WeWork. It doesn't have to be back at the office. It I think that is one big change.
Michael LeBlanc
I think it was cultural as well. I talked to a lot of executives who would never have imagined themselves saying. Because it's not like you couldn't hire someone in a different physical place to work for you before, right? That in the before time. But they said, "You know, I would never have thought to hire my Vice President of marketing in a different city and have them pop in once a month".
Rishad Tobaccowala
Exactly.
Michael LeBlanc
Culturally, it just didn't, it just didn't seem appropriate. But how, I'm just really interested in pulling on this thread a little bit. Was it just the sudden everybody you know, hits the brakes hits their head on the windshield, and oh, my God, this does work. And,
Rishad Tobaccowala
So exactly,
Michael LeBlanc
Is that it?
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yeah, well, it were to two things. One was the fact that everybody in the world was forced to do it simultaneously. Because usually, if you try something, your clients aren't aligned, and your clients say don't be stupid, we need you to do it this way. Now, everybody was doing it. So that was one.
But the second thing that people are under estimating, and something that you mentioned, is this has been going on now for over a year. And by the time we're back, quote, unquote, in whatever form we're supposed to be back, it'll be 18 months. A key thing I've discovered when I was writing my book is if someone starts or stops doing something for three to six months, long term habits are ingrained in the system. And for a lot of people, they prefer working like this, right. And they would like to go back a little bit to the office, but they don't want to go all the way back to the office.
And, for companies, I can tell you that while a lot of them (inaudible) culture and things like that. For companies, there are three huge, huge advantages which I think people are under appreciating. One is the reduction in costs for the company. Not just in real estate, but they now can basically hire from anywhere in the world. So, that's number one. Number two, is their ability to meet the ESG, and diversity needs that they have been asked to. Okay, because you no longer can basically say, I can't find people in my market. You can find people everywhere. That's the second. And the third is almost every company is beginning to realize that in a digital age, what you have to manage are your variable costs, because you don't really control your variable revenue. Your biggest variable cost happens to be your employees. Imagine if you could basically tell your employees, we will pay you 50% of your salary for 40% of your time. For the other 60%, you figure it out. Okay, but we're paying 50% and some benefits. And I think what people don't realize is the day of the full time job is going to also fall by the wayside. We're all going to be gig workers, we just don't know it yet.
Michael LeBlanc
And let's, you know, I spoke with Roger Martin, who is Dean of U of Y, and he was, where I went to school. And he described consumer behaviors. And this just was last year as he was thinking about this as as decaying assets on the balance sheet. And you know, the world and you know, America you're, a you're, about 30% of the population vaccinated Canada is about 10%, the world's about five. Do you do you think, in other words, we're not out of this yet, but there's there's a light at the end of the tunnel.Do you think there'll be a regression to the mean so to speak, of consumer behaviors? In other words, you've described the, the time it takes to create a new behavior, but I feel sometimes like people are jonesing to get back to the old ways, just because that makes them feel normal again. How do you think about that? How do you think about consumer behaviors pre and post COVID?
Rishad Tobaccowala
So, I believe that there will be lots of the behaviors that we will go back to. Initially we will go back in with great abandoned because we miss it.
Michael LeBlanc
Right.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Okay, but I will then suggest that once we have tasted it again, we will ask, in our minds, it tasted better than in real world.
Michael LeBlanc
Like the office, like the office.Wasn't it great to be in the office?
Rishad Tobaccowala
Like the office. Okay, let me give you a simple example of what I just mentioned. I used to travel 140 flights a year.
Michael LeBlanc
Wow, wow.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Okay, 125 to 140 was my thing. In fact, on March 8th, last year, I had already done 27 flights between Jan. one and March 8th. On March 12, this year was my first flight in one year, and, you know, one week.
Michael LeBlanc
Did you miss it? Did you miss being on an airplane 145 times?
Rishad Tobaccowala
So, the closest I came to missing it is I went to pick up our daughters two or three times when they came from New York. And because we got there early, and we didn't want to go to the airport, we sort of drove around O'Hare. We saw all these big planes all parked. Including, for some reason, a whole bunch, of like, Cathay Pacific and Emirates planes. And I said, it'd be good to get on one of those. That was the first bag I had. So, we took this particular flight. And let me tell you, by the time I was done, obviously it was for a good cause I was going to go see our daughters.
Michael LeBlanc
Yeah.
Rishad Tobaccowala
I said like, this is so stupid. Okay. If I had to do it for like business, I said, this is so stupid. I mean, the whole process was pretty. So, will we travel, yes. We are more likely to travel to meet friends and to have adventures and to go for business. Are we going to travel for business? Yes. But I think even the airlines basically sort of recognize that business travel is likely to be down 20 to 30% for the projectable future. And I think that may be a little too much. I think it's more likely to be down half, not even 20 to 30%. Because the reality of it is, once we go back to some of these things, we'll see a lot of it was nostalgic.
The other thing is most of us also going back to offices that are in cities and downtowns that are not anything like what we left behind.
Michael LeBlanc
That, that's such a great point is someone who's saying I'm looking forward to get back into the office. I said you're imagining an office that doesn't exist anymore.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yeah, it's that basically, you know, these are half ghost towns, right? With, with screens and all this stuff all around the place. And, you eventually find yourself sort of asking, why have I come here? And what am I doing here? And, I think the challenge for businesses or how to manage cultures and how to manage a whole bunch of things is going to be something intriguing and interest to watch.
Michael LeBlanc
Do you think if, as a young man joining an advertising agency, it's hard to think back to, you mentioned culture, which is so important. It, feels like it's going to be harder, not easier to create a culture. But does that, does that even matter anymore? Does culture matter for all gig workers? Many strategists would say culture trumps strategy in some places, what do you think?
Rishad Tobaccowala
I believe that culture is important to organizations, and culture is important to people. But if you break down what culture is, it's uniquely not necessarily that everyone has to be together 365 days or 52 weeks a year.
The three key components of culture are the following. Number one, is, am I in a company or environment whose purpose and meaning I believe in? The second is, do I feel connected to other people in my company and to my bosses? And third is to have an opportunity to grow. That's what people look for in cultures, right? Meaning, purpose, growth and connection. Nothing basically says you cannot do that by actually pulling people together one week every quarter in a distant location, and providing them with opportunities rest of the time to basically grow their skills. And they obviously can remain connected. And as long as they understand the meaning and purpose of the company, that's fine.
But I also believe over time, despite what we might think, with regard to market gaps of companies, which obviously are much higher, I think the ability of a company to drive, its people's behavior has lessened considerably over the decades and is about to accelerate in its investing of the ability to manage.
You know, one of the big reasons why the Facebook's and Apples and Google's are one of the few people who are trying very, very hard to increase their footprint in places like New York City, is because they're not cultures, their cults. Okay? cults require everybody to be on the compound, right? And so there's a big difference between a culture and a cult. And you've got to remember these companies are cults. If they are people who are well off and think for themselves, they will question their own management, which they already are. If you've noticed, one of the reasons why there is more and more pushback at a Google and a Facebook, and an Amazon in the past year is because the cult like compound has been blown apart.
Michael LeBlanc
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, you're right, you're right about many of these organizations are going the opposite direction, right? Facebook just took a million square feet. And,
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yeah, because they're basically there's a cult. And then the other thing is they basically believe they run a physical match.com. Okay, you know, because, you know, the three key things for young people, which is work is often where you work at bars, work or where you find your partners. That's number one. The second to great extent, which is very important for young people, is to learn by observing. And you know, you have to be in a place of observation. So, for the educational purpose. And the third is a cult and for the young folks, because they're, they're, this industry is a particularly young person's industry, they have to basically have a place where people can observe. They can sell on them by 'Hey, listen, you can now meet your potential partners here. And it also helps us drive cult like behavior'.
Michael LeBlanc
Let's pivot from from this discussion over to your your wonderful blog, which is filled with insights. And I want to just tap into one of the latest ones, you talked about strategy, and being three unstoppable trends. Share those with us.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Sure. So, you know, my thought on strategy, the words I come up with are future, competitive, advantage. And in order for us to be successful as either as individuals or companies, we have to understand what people will want in the future, what our competitors will likely be in the future. And then obviously, what advantage we provide to those consumers versus those competitors. Well, the future is hard to see. You know, William Shakespeare always said, 'Take the current when it serves, or prepare to lose our ventures', which means go with the flow or the trend. And so there are these unstoppable forces that you should align your future with. The first one is globalization. And I believe globalization continues despite hand rigging in the West. It just happens to be a multi, so, it's a multipolar globalization with an increased Asian flavor. Okay, but it's still global.
Michael LeBlanc
And African as well, right? You made the note that,
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yes, yes.
Michael LeBlanc
You know, where the youth,
Rishad Tobaccowala
Where the youth and people are. So basically, today you know Africa has got a billion people, 2050 will be 2 billion, 2100 will be 4 billion. Right now already in more than half of the united, the world's population is in Asia. So Asia and Africa will account for 85% of the people. So this hand wringing on the west about globalization is 'Hey, listen the world is changing'.
As importantly, the big opportunities and threats, whether it be, you know, the internet COVID-19, the rise of China, climate change, all of those are global. So align with the globe. Even if you're local, you know, your potential opportunities and threats can come from outside. The second one as demographic shifts, and every country in the world has different demographic shifts. You're in North America, the three big demographic shifts, 10,000 people turn 65 every day in the US. So, it's an aging country for the first time. The second is, it's a country that's turning multi ethnic. I know you live in Toronto, Canada is increasingly multi ethnic. but I like the United States next year under 18 will be Caucasian minority or multi ethnic. And then the third one, which is somewhat surprising is the massive divide between the urban areas and the rural areas in everything from mindset to expectations. And so you have to sort of understand that that, you know, often many of the political things we're looking at whether, like in the United States, the red states, blue states, a lot of that is the rural urban divide. We,
Michael LeBlanc
That's a big, that's a big counter trend, right. But, I mean, if you look to the 100 years ago, it's almost flipped on its head, you know, from 80%, rural to 20% in
Rishad Tobaccowala
Exactly,
Michael LeBlanc
cities. But now, that's flipped on its head, but you think it's gonna migrate backwards again, or not?
Rishad Tobaccowala
No, I think what is basically happening is that, that 20, 25%, is fighting back against the 75%. And then the other one which is starting to happenng is now, because of COVID, which is sort of the other trend. You're going to see people kind of say, "Why are we living in these particular cities?" There is this drama about New York and Manhattan, which I love. And I would not underestimate New York and Manhattan. What people don't understand is there is something unique about Manhattan, which is uniquely challenged because of COVID-19.
Michael LeBlanc
You know, let me pick up on that.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Sure.
Michael LeBlanc
I was talking to a friend in Manhattan and he said, "You know", I've been there, I dont know 30 times in my life. Love the city. But the city without the culture part, which is dead, which is not happening right now. Everything from just the nightlife, the bars, the restaurants, the Broadway. It's not a great city.
Rishad Tobaccowala
It is what it, what basically happens, there are three things that drive that city. The first thing that drives the city happens to be that it's a melting pot for the world, including Manhattan itself has only 1,000,001 residents, but 2 million people come in every day.
Michael LeBlanc
Right.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Right, those 2 million people are not coming in. So therefore, the city looks vacuous. That's number one. The other one, is there's no culture there, or limited culture. But the third, which people under appreciate, is how much of that city is based on global travel on people coming into New York. At any given time in New York, there are half, the half a billion people from outside of the United States walking around New York City or Manhatten. That's not happening. And so what, and so what begins to begin to happen is, when you don't have that high energy, high international, high culture, you are basically left with high prices.
Michael LeBlanc
That should settle out, though you would think in the fullness of time, right? I mean, big cities are still exciting place for youth to be.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yes, but, but what tends to basically happen the there will be many, many choices and options. Because one of the reasons the cities are so exciting, is most of the jobs were there.
Michael LeBlanc
Right, right. But I think in the same article that you read, you know, whether it was Spotify, or a lot of companies that you can work from anywhere. And I really do believe that the world's best people will quickly figure out that they can do multiple jobs. You have heard this, this, there's actually this case of someone who outsourced his own job, right. He stayed at home. He outsourced his job to Bangalore. He got his full wages. He gave half to the person who was doing the work in Bangalore, and the rest of the time it was fishing.
Yeah, love that story. All right, listen, let's, let's bring it home with, your like, in your book, your book ends on a positive note, with a mix of caution. Talk about the fine balance we run as citizens and as business leaders in around technology and our souls.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Sure. So I'm optimistic, including you know, about New York City and Manhattan for a couple of reasons. The first is that, technology, if you look back, you know, and we hand wring about technology, and all of the challenges we have, but if you look back any 10, 15 years and look overall as a society We have tended to do better.
There is a lot that has to be done, obviously in the case of minorities and women and everything else. But better off today than 15 years ago and 30 years ago. Whether it is health care, the way we live, technology, what we can do, what we can access. It's definitely much, much better. So, I basically am the optimist in that I believe technology enables and empowers as much as it distracts and enrages. So that's number one.
The second is, I believe that human beings and society tends to iterate and grow from what comes before. And as a result, we are increasingly beginning to believe, and I think COVID-19 has specifically underlined, that we live not to work, we work to live.
Michael LeBlanc
Listen the book is 'Restoring the Soul of Business' and the blog is 'The Containers of the Past'.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Yes, that
Michael LeBlanc
'The Future Does Not Fit in the does not fit in the Containers of the Past'
Rishad Tobaccowala
In the Container of the Past', that's at rishad.substack.com
Michael LeBlanc
Fantastic and maybe that's the name of your, your next book. And listen, Rishad, thanks so much for taking the time to speak with The Voice of Retail and speak with me again. It's always such a treat to, to tap into your insights and I wish you continued success and encourage everyone to to follow and learn from your wisdom.
Rishad Tobaccowala
Thank you very much.
Michael LeBlanc
Thanks for tuning in to today's episode of The Voice of Retail. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss out on the latest episodes, industry news and insights. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving a rating and review as it really helps us grow so that we continue to get amazing guests onto the show. I'm your host Michael LeBlanc, President of M.E. Leblanc Company Inc. And if you're looking for more content or want to chat, follow me on LinkedIn. Visit my website at meleblanc. co. Until next time, stay safe and have a great week.